Study on Arthritis being caused by certain gut bacteria

General
1

See link below

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/326249/Arthritis-test-will-end-pain-for-millions

This is the kind of study that may bring us closer towards a cure and prevention.

Unfortunately the big pharma companies want to give us medication for the rest of our lives and will fund studies to justify that their medications are the best treatment and never find a cure as that cuts their profits. Most of the worldwide government arthritis foundation websites are funded by the big pharma and denounce any alternative treatments.

Call me cynical but that's just how the mainstream medical world works right now and we cannot change that as individuals.

Of course right now we know there is no magic bullet cure, but in my experience there is an obvious link between dietary intolerances/digestive issues & genetic predisposition for all auto immune diseases. The only people who ever improve or go into remission without using medication to temporarily mask symptoms, eliminate all dietary triggers and repair their digestive tract.

Its such a tough thing to work out for yourself, especially without support from your paid mainstream medical help. It takes a lot of discipline and a long term outlook to make such dietary changes and often there is no short term reward and lots of challenges being on such a restrictive diet.

I like to make decisions on facts but mainstream medicine offers me no help apart from temporary fixes.

I have had recent blood testing show a positive celiac indication, but that is not conclusive. I am awaiting an appointment for a biopsy. Until this time I need to keep consuming gluten to allow the testing to be accurate.

Yes it will suck ass to not have gluten, but it sucks ass less than having the pain of PsA.

I have been to countless doctors and specialists and not one had suggested I do a celiac test. I had to ask for the testing myself!!!

If I am celiac, there is an anecdotal link between PsA and celiac.

It can take up to a year of gluten free before the gut heals and symptoms improve.

Even if it gets me a 30% improvement, it indicates I am on the right tract and it is a better outcome for my health than taking an NSAID.

My point with all of this is, do your own research, think independently, look for hidden agendas, read the forums, observe people who have had real improvement, do not get demoralised by cold insensitive rheumy's, they are just pill dispensers and mean no harm.

We have all suffered a lot of pain with PsA which we cannot change, but we do have choices on how we spend our time. You can watch brain numbing mass media and tv or you could look at the ever expanding knowledge base of arthritis and alternative treatments. Look up Dr Mercola, NaturalNews.com etc

I have had massive relief taking antibiotics which is not mainstream and is giving me nil side effects. It is not a cure but it is giving me a better quality of life and more energy to keep pursuing my own unique triggers and the best treatment for the rest of my life.

Dave

2

Hello Dave!

So glad to hear that you are getting positive results, and I am ever hopeful of your continued success.

This is definately a concept of great interest to me. One thing that clicks with me is that I was diagnosed with Rheumatic fever as a kid of 5 years old. At about the same time my brother came down with Scarlet fever, both of these are caused by types of Strep. His was treated with antibiotics, mine was not. That said research tells me that there is really no medical cure for strep, but there is treatment.

Years ago, at the suggestion of my DC, I went on a gluten free/anti-inflammatory diet, this lasted about a year. I was also seeing the DC and acupuncturist and feeling better more often. Who knows if the lack of gluten was the outstanding reason, that said it was not a pronounced improvement.

The DC knew of my allergy to mold, I live in an agricultural area and have a very pronounced allergy problem when grain is cut, bailed, thrashed, or transported or stirred up. He said it was not the grain I was allergic to, but the mold present on the grain, hay, straw... I love bleu cheese, but it sets me off everytime, so I have just 86ed that.

It would most certainly be in my best interest to live gluten free, and for someone who was raised on homemade bread, noodles, cakes, pies, all that good stuff, you are talking about a heart breaking proposition.

Now the gut, many Doctors believe that all disease begins there.

Brenda Watson does a PBS special presentation on Probiotics, you can watch her on youtube, she states that most probiotics are largely ineffective because they never get past the stomach enzymes and into the colon, hers do. So I plan to give them a go as I will need to replenish my supply.

This may be a far-fetched theory but I am thinking that this bacteria could be what is passed or acquired, and stays dormant until it is triggered by trauma, severe stress, food allergies, mold/yeast overgrowthchemical exposures, vitamin/mineral/amino deficencies, endocrine imbalance, tick bite...

I mentioned this to my Internist when I had my Mom in to see him, and he said that you have to be careful, that continued use of antibiotics, and I mentioned the Tetracycline family, can damage the cell walls of the body.

Now, tntlamb did a discussion about the first stem cells being approved by canada, there were 2 links, the first was stem cell, the second was a new drug for Crohns disease, I will not leave this page for fear of losing it completely, but these patients in the clinical trial had used many of the same meds used for PsA for an average of 14 years, and after 9days of treatment, the colon was as good as new, shows photos too. It is astounding. So that may be a means to heal up your colon.

Hope this makes sense, it's late and the Opana is kicking in...

Dave this post is good information, and your improvement is great news!

3

Hi,

The possible link between Psa and gluten is someting I am looking into as well. I had lived the last 3 years gluten and dairy free, due to finding out that the reasons my newborn babies were screaming the house down all day was because they were gluten and dairy intolerant. ( this was child no. 3 born in 2008 and child no. 4 born in 2010) Because I breastfed them I remained gluten-and dairy free. At the end of 2011 my then 12mth old was having issues gaining weight so was put on a specialized formula and weaned herself off the breast. Due to rising household costs, I decided to go back to eating wheat and dairy. One month after this, I had a major flare and was diagnosed a month later with Psa. I had not had any signs of this in my life until this flare except for very mild psorasis all my life. I am on Mtx and back relatively gluten and dairy free again and my Psa is good. I would say I am practical in remission . I believe there is a definite link.

4

I am glad antibiotic protocol and gluten and dairy free is working for you all. I have had a million allergy tests all negative. Except the natural path says wheat and sugar. She says that to all her patients. I see no difference what so ever in diet. I ahve been dairy free, wheat free, sugar free. no change except I missed peanut butter sandwichs. so that being said what do you suggest for someone with joints failed and no option but to replace I have 2 TKR's? Or tell this to someone who has PF so bad they can't walk or enthesitis so bad they can't walk? What do they do then. Cause that was me. I really would like to know. One time I spent about 500.00 in 2 weeks so I did not have to go on prednisone. I had enthesitis so bad I could not walk. Getting to the car to massage and physio for 2 weeks was a nightmare. Now I would take the prednisone. Pain says it all. I take MTX and Humira and Nsaids. They work for me and for lots of others. Without them my life is a living hell. I can't think, hold a cup tie my shoes without pain. Do you think Antibiotic treatment is for me? Or is it another option for others with no joint damage. Lots of people have this conspiracy theory belief that the drug companies are out to get us. If antibiotic protocol was the true answer for arthritis do you not think that rheumatology world wide would be on the band wagon with this? I cannot imagine my rheumatologist not offering me a sure cure like this.

Like I said I am glad you are having good luck with your methods of keeping your PsA under control. If your joints get bad will you go back to your rheumatologist and ask for help?

I believe in myrheumatolgist. He hasn't failed me yet. He is an exceptional doctor . I believe my MTX and Humira are helping me. I have seen the proof. good luck to you

5

There is little doubt there is a connection. The study you are referring to is a variation of one done in the fifties. The doc (I'll find his name) died while trying to get it accepted. However while there is a connection between arthritis and the gut its also clearly established that it is a SIBLING relationship not parental. I can not not imagine anyone not modifying their diet. The fact is the common link is TNF.

Read up all you can: http://www.sabiosciences.com/pathway.php?sn=TNF_Signaling


TNfs can cause the the liver to do some wacky things (including the gut . In any event if a rotten autoimumne system sends the little buggers out to do their work and they have no reason to work (which is to eliminate "tumors"), they do anyway part of how they work is triggering inflamation where it gets bad is if the the little buggers get sent out by a faulty autoimmune system AND while doing their dirty work find some reason to work ie celiac disease, they call the whole bunch of 'em in and everything gets fouled up.

The problem is the liver gets fooled by things it doesn't like (we don't know why yet.) Sugar, gluten , artificial sweeteners, complex carbs etc all of which are in some measure not "normal" it reacts. It thinks your starving and hold fat it produce TNF's etc etc.

When we put the liver at ease and let him relax, he slowws down all this. He lets loose weight, he lets us produce normal insulin (the latest of autimmune "things") and he quits calling for TNFS

Now this may make us FEEL better, but it doesn't MAKE us better. The autoimmune sytem is still wacked and is still sending out TNF's to do their dirty work. There ARE FEWER OF THEM SO THEY ARE DOING THEIR WORK SLOWLY, BUT STILL DOING IT NONE THE LESS. You will fuse (if you have spondylitis) your joints will still dissolve etc etc.

So what I am saying is YES pursue the gut stuff but it is only half the problem eliminating the irritants will help but won't cure. Pursue the rest of treatment just diligently.

PloS ONE is an online Journal... NOT worth the time to even enter the URL. Lots of bad research/papers are produced at the best medical centers and rejected for many reasons by peer review (none are because of a drug company conspiracy) However for only $1350.00 you can have your rejected article peer reviewed by the able (who are they) peer review staff at PloS ONE and have it published in a Peer review Journal (and claim such) I can buy a PhD on line too.

The article you posted is interesting and worth a read. Just remember Anecdotal Evidence is the SINGLE cause of superstition and rarely distinguishes (as in this article the cart and the horse. You even join avery expensive diet group out of australia that will promise you a cure......

6

lamb, you are one brilliant man, I believe that we are too close in age for you to have been my teacher, but lets say you had been...I would have been a 'groupie'!

Remember he had told me before that he would take Enbrel if he could get it...

7

"FEAR THE DISEASE AND NOT THE MEDS"

love it tkrlady love it! I would hate someone to not get onto proper medication like MTX and Humira. Joint damage is damage that you can't go back on. There is no way antibiotics are going to fix my joint erosions and stop my disease progression. My surgeon will. He prescribes pain meds too. I wonder if taking antibiotics will stop the pain. I guess we will never find out cause my mind is controlled by big pharm meds that are takeing over the world. I am so narrow minded and really dissing this post. I could be nicer. I really do worry about others reading these kind of posts though. I do not want to see anyone suffer because they fear the meds.

My motto " FEAR THE DISEASE NOT THE MEDS"

8

Okay, what a read that was! Thank you tkrlady!

Dave, as compelling as your treatment is, will have to say this, I feel very fortunate that I am the patient of a man who is board certified in Internal Medicine, Rheumatology, is a University Professor, and that I am currently taking Enbrel, under his watchful eye.

After that read, I do not think that I would ever even consider antibiotic treatment for anything other than what my above mentioned Physician would recommend, and certainly not for any of the autoimmune diseases from which I suffer.

It does not mean that I do not wish you continued success, I wish you success in being able to access other forms of treatments for you PsA.

This cleared up all the things that I have been wondering about, that keep circling round the back of my head as far as a possibility.

Will I go gluten free again, not sure, did not feel any fabulous change before, I will not eat bleu cheese again, that was very clear. As for probiotics, will still take those, they help me to digest my foods along with Spectrazyme. Will I pay the extra money for the ones that go to the colon, not sure yet.

As for acupuncture, I don't go anymore, because I seemed to have to go 3 times a week to notice a difference, and felt more of a difference in my finances than in my health. As for Chiropractics, when my body is torqued, and one leg gets considerably longer than the other, there is no one else who can straighten me out and make me feel better quicker.

So I have my GP, Rheum, and DC and take the meds they prescribe for me in the manner that they suggest, and wonder about a lot less possiblities than before.

SK

9

For me, I think antibiotics exacerbated and helped to bring on my first major flare! Antibiotics always worked to get rid of the primary infection whenever I had bronchitis or sinus infection, but I'd suffer for weeks after with a weekened immune system, catching EVERY cold and just feeling plain awful. This was even when taking probiotic capsules to help aleviate the malaise. This is purely anecdotal, and just my experience. I'm still piecing things together.

10

Like this!

tntlamb said:

There is little doubt there is a connection. The study you are referring to is a variation of one done in the fifties. The doc (I'll find his name) died while trying to get it accepted. However while there is a connection between arthritis and the gut its also clearly established that it is a SIBLING relationship not parental. I can not not imagine anyone not modifying their diet. The fact is the common link is TNF.

Read up all you can: http://www.sabiosciences.com/pathway.php?sn=TNF_Signaling


TNfs can cause the the liver to do some wacky things (including the gut . In any event if a rotten autoimumne system sends the little buggers out to do their work and they have no reason to work (which is to eliminate "tumors"), they do anyway part of how they work is triggering inflamation where it gets bad is if the the little buggers get sent out by a faulty autoimmune system AND while doing their dirty work find some reason to work ie celiac disease, they call the whole bunch of 'em in and everything gets fouled up.

The problem is the liver gets fooled by things it doesn't like (we don't know why yet.) Sugar, gluten , artificial sweeteners, complex carbs etc all of which are in some measure not "normal" it reacts. It thinks your starving and hold fat it produce TNF's etc etc.

When we put the liver at ease and let him relax, he slowws down all this. He lets loose weight, he lets us produce normal insulin (the latest of autimmune "things") and he quits calling for TNFS

Now this may make us FEEL better, but it doesn't MAKE us better. The autoimmune sytem is still wacked and is still sending out TNF's to do their dirty work. There ARE FEWER OF THEM SO THEY ARE DOING THEIR WORK SLOWLY, BUT STILL DOING IT NONE THE LESS. You will fuse (if you have spondylitis) your joints will still dissolve etc etc.

So what I am saying is YES pursue the gut stuff but it is only half the problem eliminating the irritants will help but won't cure. Pursue the rest of treatment just diligently.

PloS ONE is an online Journal... NOT worth the time to even enter the URL. Lots of bad research/papers are produced at the best medical centers and rejected for many reasons by peer review (none are because of a drug company conspiracy) However for only $1350.00 you can have your rejected article peer reviewed by the able (who are they) peer review staff at PloS ONE and have it published in a Peer review Journal (and claim such) I can buy a PhD on line too.

The article you posted is interesting and worth a read. Just remember Anecdotal Evidence is the SINGLE cause of superstition and rarely distinguishes (as in this article the cart and the horse. You even join avery expensive diet group out of australia that will promise you a cure......

11

I'm not sure about the GF either yet. It is too early. I don't notice anything dramatic. However, when I cheated "big" one day with a piece of non-gf pizza, wow, the next 2 days were hidious! Not sure what the true causal facot was, but it was one of those hmmmmm moments,

SK said:

Okay, what a read that was! Thank you tkrlady!

Dave, as compelling as your treatment is, will have to say this, I feel very fortunate that I am the patient of a man who is board certified in Internal Medicine, Rheumatology, is a University Professor, and that I am currently taking Enbrel, under his watchful eye.

After that read, I do not think that I would ever even consider antibiotic treatment for anything other than what my above mentioned Physician would recommend, and certainly not for any of the autoimmune diseases from which I suffer.

It does not mean that I do not wish you continued success, I wish you success in being able to access other forms of treatments for you PsA.

This cleared up all the things that I have been wondering about, that keep circling round the back of my head as far as a possibility.

Will I go gluten free again, not sure, did not feel any fabulous change before, I will not eat bleu cheese again, that was very clear. As for probiotics, will still take those, they help me to digest my foods along with Spectrazyme. Will I pay the extra money for the ones that go to the colon, not sure yet.

As for acupuncture, I don't go anymore, because I seemed to have to go 3 times a week to notice a difference, and felt more of a difference in my finances than in my health. As for Chiropractics, when my body is torqued, and one leg gets considerably longer than the other, there is no one else who can straighten me out and make me feel better quicker.

So I have my GP, Rheum, and DC and take the meds they prescribe for me in the manner that they suggest, and wonder about a lot less possiblities than before.

SK

12

Like this. It is my motto now too - thanks!

2trees said:

"FEAR THE DISEASE AND NOT THE MEDS"

love it tkrlady love it! I would hate someone to not get onto proper medication like MTX and Humira. Joint damage is damage that you can't go back on. There is no way antibiotics are going to fix my joint erosions and stop my disease progression. My surgeon will. He prescribes pain meds too. I wonder if taking antibiotics will stop the pain. I guess we will never find out cause my mind is controlled by big pharm meds that are takeing over the world. I am so narrow minded and really dissing this post. I could be nicer. I really do worry about others reading these kind of posts though. I do not want to see anyone suffer because they fear the meds.

My motto " FEAR THE DISEASE NOT THE MEDS"

13

Gluten free only works if you are gluten sensitive. I hang around a number of sites, I'm not saying the OP is the same shill that has shown up at those spots along with the testimonials that ultimatley leads to links to sell you the "cure" just that the language and phony peer reviewed studies are the same. So if I have offened anybody because I implied we are being spammed by bloodsucking sharks attempting to profit from our pain, I apologize (even though the long term use of the antibiotics they recommend will kill you.

14

I do believe that its entirly possible that good people get sucked have some success and with all good intentions pass it on.....

15

Wow. I like this post very much, tntlamb. I learned some things too. Not too happy about the diet advice at this point but at least now I know and can try to work towards it. Thanks for all of the helpful info!

tntlamb said:

There is little doubt there is a connection. The study you are referring to is a variation of one done in the fifties. The doc (I'll find his name) died while trying to get it accepted. However while there is a connection between arthritis and the gut its also clearly established that it is a SIBLING relationship not parental. I can not not imagine anyone not modifying their diet. The fact is the common link is TNF.

Read up all you can: http://www.sabiosciences.com/pathway.php?sn=TNF_Signaling


TNfs can cause the the liver to do some wacky things (including the gut . In any event if a rotten autoimumne system sends the little buggers out to do their work and they have no reason to work (which is to eliminate "tumors"), they do anyway part of how they work is triggering inflamation where it gets bad is if the the little buggers get sent out by a faulty autoimmune system AND while doing their dirty work find some reason to work ie celiac disease, they call the whole bunch of 'em in and everything gets fouled up.

The problem is the liver gets fooled by things it doesn't like (we don't know why yet.) Sugar, gluten , artificial sweeteners, complex carbs etc all of which are in some measure not "normal" it reacts. It thinks your starving and hold fat it produce TNF's etc etc.

When we put the liver at ease and let him relax, he slowws down all this. He lets loose weight, he lets us produce normal insulin (the latest of autimmune "things") and he quits calling for TNFS

Now this may make us FEEL better, but it doesn't MAKE us better. The autoimmune sytem is still wacked and is still sending out TNF's to do their dirty work. There ARE FEWER OF THEM SO THEY ARE DOING THEIR WORK SLOWLY, BUT STILL DOING IT NONE THE LESS. You will fuse (if you have spondylitis) your joints will still dissolve etc etc.

So what I am saying is YES pursue the gut stuff but it is only half the problem eliminating the irritants will help but won't cure. Pursue the rest of treatment just diligently.

PloS ONE is an online Journal... NOT worth the time to even enter the URL. Lots of bad research/papers are produced at the best medical centers and rejected for many reasons by peer review (none are because of a drug company conspiracy) However for only $1350.00 you can have your rejected article peer reviewed by the able (who are they) peer review staff at PloS ONE and have it published in a Peer review Journal (and claim such) I can buy a PhD on line too.

The article you posted is interesting and worth a read. Just remember Anecdotal Evidence is the SINGLE cause of superstition and rarely distinguishes (as in this article the cart and the horse. You even join avery expensive diet group out of australia that will promise you a cure......

16

Hi All,

Sorry for the slow reply...

Thanks for the replies, I am happy to hear both critical and supportive comments. I don't pretend to have all the answers. There is presently no cure for PsA or the other auto immune diseases and I am not suggesting the Antibiotic treatment I am on is a cure.

Re-reading my initial post, it was a bit of a rant. In saying that, do not underestimate the power and effect of the big pharma companies with political lobbying and although I am sure there are good people genuinely looking for cures, I wouldnt rely on them for a magic bullet pill cure. It costs over a million dollars to get a medication approved through the FDA, it is BIG business.

if you watch Food Inc, Food Matters, Cut Poison Burn, etc and read a lot of independent news I believe it is a good thing to balance against the zombie mass media in the western world.

Firstly to 2trees, I must reinforce that it appears my PsA is not as well established and severe as yours. I am not suggesting if you cut gluten and take antibiotics that all is cured. If I were in your shoes I would take whatever it takes to get some relief and if joints are damaged and need replacing there is no avoiding that fact and you need all the professional medical support you can get. I agree if you are suffering you need to take the correct meds prescribed for you until you get relief.

My point was more about looking for cures and preventative methods, concentrating on the solution and not the problem.

I am suggesting that getting gluten sensitivity blood testing and if required then the biopsy are a valuable tool for PsA treatment. I totally agree with Tntlamb that this alone is not a cure but if you can get some relief eliminating something which is definitely triggering your immune system then that is the most healthy option to take long term not just for arthritis but also for your general health. In my mind just going gluten free for a few weeks or months without getting proper testing does not prove it in a way that satisfies me. I want to see medical facts and data and since my bloodwork came up a low positive for Celiac I want to explore that properly. For those of you that have gone gluten free and felt some change or relief I would strongly urge you to pursue this more seriously.

What I am saying is that Antibiotics have lowered both my CRP & ESR to normal levels from a gradually trending up phase. This isnt a fluke or coincidence, I believe (and FEEL) that with these at now normal levels my joints are not in the environment where they are being damaged further. This may change and I am open to taking the other Meds if required, but I am getting regular bloods from a GP and Rheumy to monitor my situation. One of the doctors I see is a professor of immunology and he has seen my improvement and suggested I avoid the MTX and Sulfasalazine unless my CRP/ESR change as the Antibiotics are working for me. I wouldnt say that "there is no way that antibiotics are going to stop my disease progression" as they actually have for a fact for tens of thousands of people. The people who get on antibiotics tend to stay on them because they work and keep working. You can diss that but unless you have tried this treatment do not dismiss it. The antibiotics usually are taken in conjunction with the DMARDS, Biologics NSAIDS and the experiences I have seen is that those are weened off and not the antibiotics.

As discussed, I am not eligible in Australia for the biologics unless my situation deteriorates or I am prepared to pay the full unsubsidised price.

MTX is not a drug I wish to take unless I really have to. I want to have more children at some stage and it would be very hard to stop the MTX if it were giving me relief. The liver effects are something I do fear, be that rightly or wrongly.

I am not a research Scientist and I cannot refer to all the data out there on the antibiotic treatment but I encourage you to do your own research and the Road Back Foundation website is a good place to start.

TNTlamb I totally agree with where you are coming from. I am running out of time to fully reply but I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Dave