I have been reading that certain antibiotics, in particular Minocyn and Doxicycline can help with the pain of PsA. I would be most grateful for any response, positive or negative. With huge thanks.
I have been on doxycycline, sulfasalazine, and diclofenac for almost three weeks. Just diagnosed with psoriatic. It is working very well for me. It is also very inexpensive. There are some studies available that show good results. One thing I noticed with myself before the diagnosis is everytime I took antibiotics my pain would go away. I told my doctors but they didn’t believe me. Mine was triggered by a c diff infection we think. I had a genetic predisposition for psoriasis. never knew I had psoriasis but it is in my nail for sure. Im very happy with my response to doxycycline and other meds. Look up Dr. Namey and psoriatic arthritis on health tap. Also google doxycycline and arthritis. It is working great for me. Hopefully my labs will prove it.
Its based on "The Road Back" a quack group dealing with RA and assuming that it also applies to PsA There is a theory that either a very strange form of an STD causes RA or somehow bacteria in your "gut" sneak out and cause arthritis. There is no scientific proof that it works period. Lots of folks refer to the adherents to this theory as "smurfs" as long term use often turns the user blue. Years ago it was silver. There is a form of arthritis called Reactive arthritisclassically seen following infection with enteric pathogens such as Yersinia, Salmonella, Campylobacter and Shigella. Inflammatory arthritis has also been described following other enteric infection with organisms such as Clostridium difficile, Brucella and Giardia. The symptoms of theses forms normally disappear 6-12 mos after the infection is treated. This form is easily tested for however.
Tetracycline (a related antibiotic) has been used to successfully to treat very early stage RA. Its doesn;'t cure it by any means but the action is that of a DMARD (MTX)
There is also a form of arthritis called enteropathic arthritis. This one is closley related to PsA however the primary condition with this one is IBD, Chrons or Colitis. It often comes with Ankylosing Spondylitis. The gut disease is autoimmune in nature.....
Now that I have given you the science, you get to hear a bit of the "old lamb" Just about all of these alternative cures including the diet ones, and my favorite the "conspiracies" (there really is a cure but the medical establishment is keeping it a secret) are all based on denial and the modern theory that it is "someone elses fault" It delays real treatment that can make a real difference. The proces of denial believing there is a simple solution if only one did something "simple" leads to major depression and frankly a lot of mental illness. Haven't met one of the "disciples" yet that wasn't french fry short of a happy meal. (Not to say looking at all these things is necessarily crazy)
The other problem is that without fail the proponents of these alternatives don't have enough faith in their "product" to let it stand on its own but rather spend an inordinate amount of time developing an unhealthy fear of real treatment and medications. So much so they miss how serious this disease is. Instead of fearing PsA, they fear treatment of PsA.
I have been involved in research all my professional life. There aren't many secrets. hell they couldn't keep Watergate a seceret for more than 3 days. With the thousands of folk involved in arthritis research a cure isn't hidden somewhere either
It's invaluable to explore both sides. Complimentary medicine isn't a bad thing, but it has to compliment or supplement something. And I agree it should stand up to scientific inquiry. Isn't sulfasalazine an antibiotic treatment and common course of treatment for PsA?
Thanks for both the medical POV and the personal one, lamb. It's always fun to get to the ooey-gooey center.
tntlamb said:
Now that I have given you the science, you get to hear a bit of the "old lamb"
Sulfazine is a DMARD, its not the sulfa antibiotic.
MOM5 had Clostridium difficile (klos-TRID-e-um dif-uh-SEEL), often called C. difficile or C. diff. Its causes one of those enteropathic arthritises I was mentioning above. It is treated with antibiotics in an attempt to clear up the colitis. Sometimes it requires surgical intervention depending on the direction the colitis takes. Often when the gut problem is cleared up the arthritis the arthritis clears up too. We don't know yet whether the C, diff is the chicken or the egg in regards to the Psoriasis that follows. Dr. Namey is a pretty aggresive physician and pushes stronhgle for early intervention and aggresive treatment.. For some reason Sulfasalazine (2-3g/day) has been shown to be effective for treatment of the peripheral arthropathy associated with C.diff, but not axial disease While methotrexate can be useful to treat bowel activity in Crohns disease (CD), its effect on joint disease with enteropathic arthritis is less certain. Where it gets really interesting is that while both Enbrel and Humira are relativley ineffective Remicade, Stelera, and Cimzia are. MOM5 is a pretty unique case however and while all this is interesting doesn't apply to most of us.
Antiobiotic therapy is not what she is recieving as she is getting a DMARD and NSAIS as well as treating a KNOWN infection.
One of the benefits out of all of this is that in a few years one of the routine tests we all will be getting will be able to "match our disease" to the meds eliminating a lot of the guess work. We all know about HLA-B27, but there are also 37 other recognized strings also associated. not mention some of the IL12 and 23 and other protein variants.
Thanks for the clarification re: sulfasalazine.
I think the progress on identifying the proteins involved in the illness/inflammatory process for treatment and diagnosis is fascinating--albeit rather outside of my comfort zone (being a complete science nonce).
tntlamb said:
Sulfazine is a DMARD, its not the sulfa antibiotic.
One of the benefits out of all of this is that in a few years one of the routine tests we all will be getting will be able to "match our disease" to the meds eliminating a lot of the guess work. We all know about HLA-B27, but there are also 37 other recognized strings also associated. not mention some of the IL12 and 23 and other protein variants.
Thank you for your well informed reply, I am most grateful. My reading was indeed based on The Road Back group. I have had Crohns Disease for 25 years, psoriasis from early childhood which disappeared with the onset of Crohns ( probably due to high doses of steroids ) but was only diagnosed with PsA 2 years ago, aged 53. I am on MTX and Humira, neither to much effect, and a well meaning relative has been encouraging me to use antibiotics. Do you know how to distingiuish between PsA and enteropathic arthritis?
tntlamb said:
Its based on "The Road Back" a quack group dealing with RA and assuming that it also applies to PsA There is a theory that either a very strange form of an STD causes RA or somehow bacteria in your "gut" sneak out and cause arthritis. There is no scientific proof that it works period. Lots of folks refer to the adherents to this theory as "smurfs" as long term use often turns the user blue. Years ago it was silver. There is a form of arthritis called Reactive arthritisclassically seen following infection with enteric pathogens such as Yersinia, Salmonella, Campylobacter and Shigella. Inflammatory arthritis has also been described following other enteric infection with organisms such as Clostridium difficile, Brucella and Giardia. The symptoms of theses forms normally disappear 6-12 mos after the infection is treated. This form is easily tested for however.
Tetracycline (a related antibiotic) has been used to successfully to treat very early stage RA. Its doesn;'t cure it by any means but the action is that of a DMARD (MTX)
There is also a form of arthritis called enteropathic arthritis. This one is closley related to PsA however the primary condition with this one is IBD, Chrons or Colitis. It often comes with Ankylosing Spondylitis. The gut disease is autoimmune in nature.....
Now that I have given you the science, you get to hear a bit of the "old lamb" Just about all of these alternative cures including the diet ones, and my favorite the "conspiracies" (there really is a cure but the medical establishment is keeping it a secret) are all based on denial and the modern theory that it is "someone elses fault" It delays real treatment that can make a real difference. The proces of denial believing there is a simple solution if only one did something "simple" leads to major depression and frankly a lot of mental illness. Haven't met one of the "disciples" yet that wasn't french fry short of a happy meal. (Not to say looking at all these things is necessarily crazy)
The other problem is that without fail the proponents of these alternatives don't have enough faith in their "product" to let it stand on its own but rather spend an inordinate amount of time developing an unhealthy fear of real treatment and medications. So much so they miss how serious this disease is. Instead of fearing PsA, they fear treatment of PsA.
I have been involved in research all my professional life. There aren't many secrets. hell they couldn't keep Watergate a seceret for more than 3 days. With the thousands of folk involved in arthritis research a cure isn't hidden somewhere either
lindag said:
, and a well meaning relative has been encouraging me to use antibiotics.
Keep in mind, if it's not a well-meaning relative, it's a well-meaning stranger in a store, or coworker, etc. They all will have a suggestion, they all think they have a cure. I was at a craft fair last week and someone at a bookseller booth insisted the next booth over had a cream that would cure my psoriasis. The front desk lady at my son's school suggested I take apple cider vinegar to cure my PsA. It honestly never ends.
If there was something simple out there that worked, we would all be doing it. I understand you are new to this disease, but there is not a quick fix, or any fix, unfortunately. What we DO have, are a lot of scientifically PROVEN treatments that work very well at slowing down this disease.
Just wanted to add my case is complicated. The sulfasalazine is for colitis. Everyone's case is unique. He has mentioned adding another drug if needed. This treatment is working very well for me. When I first saw him I could barely get around. I began treatment and saw very good results. At my return appt I was able to walk without assistance and was able to sit without the terrible pain that I had before. What I am on is not strictly antibiotic therapy. I have the DMARD and NSAID. Mine seemed to be triggered after having c. diff. I was on three rounds of vancomycin and flagyl to get rid of it. Ended up doing a taper and using florastor. That did the trick to become negative for c. diff. Have had colonoscopies and stool tests that were negative. I have had bad cramps after eating and was on levsin. The sulfasalazine has stopped the cramps. I nolonger use Levsin. I do not want to sound like I am a proponent for antibiotic therapy. I really do not know much about it. I have done a little research about the meds I am on. I am very new to all of this. One day I may have to go to other drugs. I think mine was caught early. Maybe I do not need Enbrel yet?
You took antibiotics for a known infection, MOM5. Big difference from the leaky gut thing. Your next step really depends on your symptoms. With gut stuff they ususally use different Biologicals than Enbrel so will often try triple therapy first. I'm guessing Avara or MTX is in your immediate future
Dr. Namey told me it is not curable but remittable. He seems to be pretty no nonsense to me. He talks about what has scientific proof that it works. He discourages quackery to me. I have had some therapies that he doesn't believe in. I tried acupuncture, prolotherapy, etc. I don't think he approved of those treatments. He also did not like that I had not been treated with anti inflammatory meds since my condition was inflammatory. The DMARD and NSAID has reduced pain a great deal. I think all the drugs I am on reduce swelling. Now I can almost touch the floor. Before I could not. I am not stiff like I was. When I started prolotherapy I was told not to take NSAIDs. This was prior to seeing the rheumatologist. No one ever suggested that I see a rheumatologist. I began to distrust all of my doctors and referred myself.
They all are anti-inflammatory in some way for sure. I'm glad you found Dr. Namey and took the initiative to find him. He most certainly has you on the right track..... As they Say Results talk and BS walks he is a big believer in the biologicals but takes Baby steps.
I think he likes to begin with what I am on and then add MTX. waiting on further liver tests. After MTX he would do biologicals if needed.