Fusion, surgery and other yucky things

Thought I'd just start another thread........

We have two kinds fusion with our family diseases. Autoinfusion and Surgical.

Autoinfusion can be caused either by disease "Ankylosing Spondylitis" or by reaction to constant inflammation. We spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to avoid this fusion, Once it happens you either commit yourself to a long daily routine of stretching, exercise, and other painful and inconvenient stuff or your muscles will slowly atrophy causing lots of pain because of instability that leads to nerve pressure, add to that the fact the disease and aging don't stop so you develop stenosis causing more pain, but of course you are fused so there is very little that can be done to reverse it. short of literally removing parts of your spine and replacing it with live bone grafts which of course have to extend above and beyond the original fusion make more fusion and starting the whole process over.

Fortunately those days are pretty much over. The old bamboo spine and camels hump is pretty much a thing of the past. We have learned how to control inflammation well enough to slow or stop auto infusion and Biological drugs have done much the same for Ankylosing Spondylitis.

There was a time not so long ago that spinal surgery was a huge deal. It was hours long and you frankly felt lucky sometimes to get your patient off the table alive. That all change with the "scope" Laminectomys became routine day surgery, all of this based of course on faulty science that back pain was caused by bulging and even herniated discs (its pretty clear NOW this is rarley the case in fact we knew that was the case when we quit using traction) Spinal Surgeons popped up all over and they opened their own surgicenters. These guys started becoming millionaires. Then it really went ballistic when they could start using a lazer instead of a knife.

Well guess what happened? They started making unstable spines causing huge propblems. But these guys had huge bills to pay motgages , equipment etc so laminectomys were replace by laminotomy and discectomy (even faster) where they only took a piece of the disc out leaving the spine stable. Of course the area is flooded with local anesthetic and steroids to prevent swelling (and damage) and Voila the pain is gone - for a while. Now I'm not saying all back surgery of this type is bad just most of it and probably not the vast majority of it not refereed by a neurologist (not neuro surgeon) and actual demonstrable nerve damage)

But one lie (bulging discs) has been replaced with another. We can fix your back pain "stabilizing your spine" better known as the elective fusion. SI's are the most common and th recently the cervical spine through Arthrodesis is popular. They claim there is little loss of flexibility because its only two connected. Yes occasionaly there is a need for this surgery. BUT there is there is NO DOUBT and a positive mylogram..... Remember what I was was saying about auto-fusion? It applies here. You are guaranteeing pain and stiffness which can be HELPED by extensive exercise and PT. there is another lie. PT shouldn't hurt. This apparently the same lie we used to tell our children about going to the doctor to get them there. If you have ever played a sport seriously there is pain.

I had some scaffolding collapse a number of years ago and crushed two vertebrae. In order to prevent permanent paralysis I was fitted with a brace. The swelling eventually went down and I got function of my legs back and was able to leave the hospital while the bones mended. Eventually after six months I was able to give up the brace. Thats when the pain REALLY started. THose six months in the brace destroyed any muscle tone I had. Now I should have known what was going on but I just took muscle relaxants and pain pills LOTS of both. My life was living hell. Finally I ended up at a spinal rehab center. My lead lead therapist almost wet her pants laughing when I told her PT wasn't supposed to hurt. But you know it took TWO YEARS of 2 hours a day PT to get things back to normal (which BTW wasn't great Ialready had the AS diagnoses. The pain from therapy receeded pretty quickly. But I Still cringe when I see those big blue therapy balls or milk jugs next to a pool. ALL of that pain came from "fusion"

One of the problems we have as PsA/AS patients is a quick fix whether it be surgery, pill or magic potion. If it isn't quick enough we are content to sit on our butt waiting for a quick fix loudly proclaiming we would do more to help ourselves except...... We of course also are content to wait for our docs to come up with a fix living in denial we have a problem.....When we wake up we REALLY have a problem.

The other problem is we are willing to do what it takes so willing we can be sold just about any solution. Its estimated by some that as many as 80% of out patient spinal surgeries (averaging 30-80 grand and more) are unecessary.

My question is if we work so hard to avoid fusion from disease because it cripples us and causes new and permanent pain, why in the sam hell would we pay some millionaire 30 grand to do it for us??

FWIW thinking of your friend I am convinced medical people and ex medical people make the worst medical decisions. They have way too many procedures (or not enough) One one of my old golf buddies was a neurologist. We both were diagnosed with a benign pituitary tumor about the same time. Now understand this is a pretty common tumor in men over 50. Most don't know they have it. The most common symptom is low testosterone. They do surgery for it and have for years, Its a rather dramatic surgery to watch they remove your nose and go in through the holes left to remove the tumor (they reattach the nose) But they almost never do the surgery unless there are problems beyond what some medication can handle (The tumor usually stops growing)

But for ol' Nordie the uncertainty of whether he would need the surgery was driving him nuts. We made jokes what if the anesthesiologist accidently kicked the breathing machine.machine and pulled off his nose. A big price for having a surgery he didn't need to avoid having it in the event he needed it and to avoid a needle stick once a week with Testosterone. He laughed but then informed us he was flying to Boston to have it done. Might as well have the best even though it was routine stuff..... Anyway off he went to John Hopkins. Died on the table

Ugh, Lamb, what a sad story. I’m so sorry about your friend. My mother also had a benign pituitary tumour, but it didn’t stop growing. It was discovered when it was 8 cm diameter and 1 cm AP (yes, you read that correctly, the size of a quarter pounder)and Mother was 87. After much agonizing on the part of me and my sister (Mother did not agonize for one second, she wanted it done) we agreed to the surgery, hoping that it would save what was left of her eyesight. It didn’t. What followed was three years of hell, worst of all for her. Not co-incidentally, my as-yet-undiagnosed PsA took off like a rocket during that period. The erosions in my feet were discovered the day she died. OK, this is OT from your post, sorry. But it’s on topic for Jen’s “stress=flares thread”, so, Lamb, I hope you won’t suspend me. :wink:
Anyway, more on topic, I have fusions too. But mine are in my feet. Several of my TMT joints have grown together as a result of the longstanding (hehe) inflammation. I’m being referred to a crack foot and ankle surgeon to see about making me a bit more comfortable and mobile. Unfortunately, his waiting list is about five years long. By that time, I’ll surely need his expertise!

I actually think it is on topic, so you are okay Seenie. We are talking about surgery.

Going through College I spent a couple a couple of years living in a mortuary as the "night man" (I'd answer the phone and make any "first calls" in the night) It was a wonderful job paid pretty well and I had free rent and lots of study time even made my honeymoon special as my future (and current) wife absolutely would not spend the night so when she flew in from her college about 1000 miles away she stayed at the girls dorm at the school........

In any event when I got my acceptance to my future "mechanical career" instead of my mother being thrilled, she informed me I might just as well stay in the undertaking business......... I'm not entirely certain she wasn't serious. In any event I went different direction after a while anyway (the story of my life)

Its not that I am opposed to surgery. I offered the guy who yanked my kidney stones my first born child. I'm just not sure its always the answer even if it seems it is.

Sybil,

May I ask you some questions about your fusion on your big toe? I have been having a lot of pain.. and I have to decide whether to do a fusion or a joint replacement in the toe ( which I have never heard of)... I'm just nervous I guess.

Thx..

Karen

sybil said:

Think I've figured out what you used to do for a living. There's plenty of food for thought here - I'm going to be reading this again & again. I have a fused big toe from bunion operation - completely different from spine I know but despite long metal plate & no tendon my toe still moves like it did before & I never have any pain - the surgeon was wonderful. But they think that surgery may have triggered my PsA.

I am a very sceptical person especially when money's clearly a prime motivator. Trouble is when there's a need to act & scepticism has to be put aside for lack of options. My friend is now in a wheelchair having had a metal frame inserted the length of her spine - I've no idea what's wrong with her, she has her own way of coping & explaining isn't part of it. An ex-nurse, she agonised over that decision, gambled & lost.

Please intrude. Fusion is a big issue................... Don't let my feelings that causing it on purpose is silly intrude :-)

I have had 2 joint fusion surgeries on my fingers. Both my pinky DIP joints were at 45 degrees. I could still bend them, but the joint and tendons were destroyed, and even splinting was pretty useless. I had joint fusion done and it was the very best thing I could have done. Having my DIP joint fused straight had the side effect of reducing the swan neck deformity of my PIP joints on that finger and greatly increased functionality of my hand, as well as reduced pain.

Lamb,

Im so sorry.. trying to figure out what I need to do.. I have put it off for a few years now.. but it hurts so much - i have to do something.. just trying to figure out my best option..

Karen



tntlamb said:

Please intrude. Fusion is a big issue................... Don't let my feelings that causing it on purpose is silly intrude :-)

It is a big decision Karen, don't know what you are apologizing for. I refer to spinal fusion. I know little about feet, although they are pretty amazing my neighbor (a general surgeon) lost her thumb in a horse accident. We fount it but it wasn't repairable. She ended up having her big toe amputated and attached to replace her thumb. It took some rehab to whip that thing into shape, but she resumed surgery.

There is a lot they can do for a big Toe so long as its the MTP joint (metatarsophalangeal) they even put new ones in, no experience in that area though

I have questions about spinal fusion due to AS. My current rheumy says that fusion is mainly a "guy thing" and that women usually don't have to worry. I'm concerned, though, that my last DEXA scan showed an increase in bone in my lumbar spine- not the usual finding in a 55-year-old, hyperthyroid woman on prednisone! Anyone have any insight?

Boy i go to PT and the grocery store and all heck breaks out here! Thanks Lamb. I, like Sybil, will need to read it a few times to wrap my brain around it entirely. I (a medical professional who prefers no procedures!) will need to really think this over. My feeling if it can be avoided it should be.

Louise I guess my question to my doctor would be is where the extra bone is. If it is bone spurs it is bad if it is thicker bone, in the right place that would be good. But I would ask your doctor.

OT again, Lamb but your story reminds me of a local dentist who chopped his thumb off with an axe. They did the same transplant on him. Some of his patients were grossed out by the thought of his big toe in their mouth, but he continued to do good dentistry. OK, back to business and Karen’s dilemma: while the toe work is nothing to take lightly, it’s not the same as brain or spine surgery. If it’s causing pain and disability, I’d say consider doing it.







tntlamb said:

It is a big decision Karen, don’t know what you are apologizing for. I refer to spinal fusion. I know little about feet, although they are pretty amazing my neighbor (a general surgeon) lost her thumb in a horse accident. We fount it but it wasn’t repairable. She ended up having her big toe amputated and attached to replace her thumb. It took some rehab to whip that thing into shape, but she resumed surgery.

There is a lot they can do for a big Toe so long as its the MTP joint (metatarsophalangeal) they even put new ones in, no experience in that area though

Bone mass? Thats a good thing!

In any event your rheumy is right. not that he shouldn't be. Guys do fuse. For a long time AS was called young white mans disease. I guess I should leave it to him to tell you the rest of the story, but you girls are more symptomatic and have more pain. They whole AS thing is going away in the next few years It will all become Axial Spondylaropathy. It will then be further defined much like PsA is now.

Louise said:

I have questions about spinal fusion due to AS. My current rheumy says that fusion is mainly a "guy thing" and that women usually don't have to worry. I'm concerned, though, that my last DEXA scan showed an increase in bone in my lumbar spine- not the usual finding in a 55-year-old, hyperthyroid woman on prednisone! Anyone have any insight?

Sorta give a whole new meaning to foot in mouth doesn't it?

Seenie said:

OT again, Lamb but your story reminds me of a local dentist who chopped his thumb off with an axe. They did the same transplant on him. Some of his patients were grossed out by the thought of his big toe in their mouth, but he continued to do good dentistry. OK, back to business and Karen's dilemma: while the toe work is nothing to take lightly, it's not the same as brain or spine surgery. If it's causing pain and disability, I'd say consider doing it.



tntlamb said:

It is a big decision Karen, don't know what you are apologizing for. I refer to spinal fusion. I know little about feet, although they are pretty amazing my neighbor (a general surgeon) lost her thumb in a horse accident. We fount it but it wasn't repairable. She ended up having her big toe amputated and attached to replace her thumb. It took some rehab to whip that thing into shape, but she resumed surgery.

There is a lot they can do for a big Toe so long as its the MTP joint (metatarsophalangeal) they even put new ones in, no experience in that area though

Ty Seenie and Lamb for the input. I'm nervous and trying to make a good decision. I made a hasty one a few years back with my knee replacement and paid for it. Had to have it done twice. Wasn't easy

Huggs. Karen

My neice just went through the knee thing TWICE as well. The silly girl thought it would be a walk in the park after her hip.

Ya, I had a knee replacement done twice as well. But on different knees. :wink: Oh oh, I’m getting goofy now, so it must be time for bed here in the Canadian hinterland.

As for hip vs knee, Lamb, I found the knees much more difficult and painful than the hip. MUCH. Silly girl indeed.

I have AS. Partially fused sacoriliac joints, and partial fusions in my neck and back. Rheumy and I are talking MRI early next year to pinpoint and get me going in PT now that my meds are giving me the ability to move. I tried PT earlier on before meds, but would flare dramatically. I need to read Lamb's original post a couple more times because my brain is not registering anything much today.

Great points, Lamb. I learn a great deal from your posts. Thank you. But didn't you say in another thread that if your bones fuse from disease - it actually takes away pain? I thought I had read that. So with that argument, wouldn't surgical fusion take away pain too?

If everything was lined up just right...... Imagine surgical fusion as going to the chiropractor only permanent. Back in the day, I had more than one adjustment that seemed right at the time......... but I was back the next day for a little fine tuning...... What if that surgeon is off just a skosh?????? fusion from disease often does leave one pain free. At lesst thats what the body thinks its doing.........

Liberty said:

Great points, Lamb. I learn a great deal from your posts. Thank you. But didn't you say in another thread that if your bones fuse from disease - it actually takes away pain? I thought I had read that. So with that argument, wouldn't surgical fusion take away pain too?