You need to get worse, before you get better

Hello,

I saw my rheumatologist this week. The plan is for me to start biologics. I tick all the boxes except my joints were painful, not swollen and he is apparently required to see swelling before I am placed on the biologics. So to do this he has stopped me taking methotrexate. I didn’t like the drug anyway the side effects far outweighed the benefits for me. So the next 8 weeks may be difficult taking one less DMARD. During my consultation he also mentioned, that individuals with PsA usually experience joint pain and not so much swelling. My questions are 1. in your experience is this true, do you have more joint pain than swelling and 2. have any of you had this treatment where ’you need to get worse before you get better?’.

Thanks, Nicole :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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Hi there, yes and yes!! I often get pain without swelling. I’ve just even taken off Methotrexate for four weeks to clear my system of it and for my joints to get worse before starting a clinical trial comparing the efficacy of two different biologics. I’m happy to do this as it means I get to stop the Methotrexate which I hate, and get to trial a biologic and stay on biologics if they work for me, as well as helping medical science in their fight to control PsA. Win win (apart from the inevitable flare!) x🤗

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Yes and yes.

My joints rarely appeared swollen to anyone else, including my Rheumy, though they obviously were to me (can’t get rings on/off, bra strap leaves an indent that stays for a few hours, socks leave indents that last for hours on my ankles).

When we applied for biologics, my Rheumy even told me to try to get the flu to get my ESR up!!:rofl::rofl: … and he was at least half serious.

In my case, because I’d been on long-term prednisone, we could basically use that as an “excuse” for why I didn’t tick the ESR / CRP box (it had never been high, but the questionnaire didn’t ask for that).

Good luck, I hope it all works :grinning:

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The swelling is hard to detect sometimes…I didn’t really realize I had much swelling until I went on Enbrel. But my rheumatologist did see it…you probably do have minor swelling that’s hard to detect.

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Hello Katie, Jen & Grandma J,

Yes I do swell, my fingers in my right hand swell and get red at the joints, my knees puff out as well. But this doesn’t happen everyday, however, they do hurt like hell some days. Some mornings my hands are so stiff, I can’t even open them when I wake up. I was laughing hysterically :joy::joy::joy: in the car last night. I drove home from work, parked the car and couldn’t get my hands off the steering wheel. My fingers had stiffened into position. I sat their for about 10 mins just laughing :joy::joy::joy: and trying to prise them off the wheel.

Oh boy! Nothing phases me anymore, since I’ve had this condition.

Nicole x

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Oh my gosh, Nicole! I never laughed when my joints locked up…it was very painful for a few seconds getting them to move and it was sharp pain…my hands and fingers were always stiff like someone glued them and I had to constantly be flexing my fingers. Wow, good you can laugh about it…you sound like my dad—he laughed when he accidentally sawed his pinky finger off and joked with the ER doctor about “pickling” it!!! :joy:

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Hi Nicole,
in my experience rheumatologists won’t do diddly squat (over here in the UK anyway) without joint swelling. Hence the absurd situation of having been ‘grateful’ for pronounced and long-lasting swelling of joints. It’s a classic example of needing to get worse before having the opportunity to get better.

Your rheumy at least accepts that PsA may not result in swollen joints. Sometimes they find ways around the protocols and I just hope that happens.

These days, because Humira has tackled swelling, my joint pain just doesn’t matter. I can handle being told there’s nothing that can be done, but it’s not good when reports of pain and stiffness are simply ignored, brushed-off, dismissed. It’s just not helpful in the slightest.

The only possible justification I can think of for painful joints not meriting biologics without long-lasting swelling is if swelling is a red flag for potential joint damage. If that is the case then you might find some comfort in that, but you would also need a considered plan of some sort for easing pain. I guess you know that exercise can be an amazing pain killer? I’ve probably mentioned that a few times lol. But what strategies or medication does you rheumy advise, if any?

As you can probably tell I’m quite grumpy about your situation, just trying to hold it in! Wishing you all the best, you’re always so positive & seems to me you deserve better.

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Thanks Sybil.

It’s good to hear your views and no, you’re not grumpy, you’re just stating the facts. I also suffer with chronic back pain. I’m in my 40’s and my spine is that of a 90 year old. The disc have degenerated in my lower spine, and I am left with permanent disc bulges. So pain is nothing new. I would describe back pain as sharp and quick, but joint pain niggles and lingers. This together with the stiffness and swelling makes for a very distasteful cocktail :tropical_drink:.

So I take medication for both PsA and chronic pain and I’m sure my back pain medication works for my joint pain as well. Fingers and toes crossed I get through this episode. I first visited my consultant just over 2 years now and I must admit I feel like a guinea pig sometimes. I swear I get used as a test dummy for different treatment plans. Who knows?

I’ll keep you all posted.

Nicole x

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Well I find it funny. (I’m sure you don’t Nicole) but if you were in say the USA were taken off MTX and experienced an increased ESR or swollen joints, it might be MORE difficult to get the Biologics as that would be evidence that the MTX was effective… In any event making a patient sicker to prove they were sick that would be considered unethical. Our protocols also distinguish between swollen and inflamed by a simple physical exam.

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Hello,

I have to say I think it’s a daft idea too. With the methotrexate, the side effects far outweighed the benefits for me and I was still experiencing stiffness and pain.

Do you have anything similar to our NICE guidelines? That’s what the go by here to determine who gets what medication.

Nicole x

I’ve never had too much inflammation/swelling, nothing showed up in blood tests, so my initial rheumy diagnosed me on my reported symptoms alone. However, subsequent rheumy basically ignored my on going joint pain because my bloods were okay and not visibly inflamed and therefore the SSZ was working?! Then said I had fibromyalgia and offered pre-gabalin, even though it’s joint pain not muscle pain!
So, in my experience, they vary massively. I trust my nurse more to be honest and specialist physio, they have more time to listen.
Good luck with everything and don’t be afraid to challenge what you’re told :heart_decoration:

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Hi Nicole,

I’m in Kent too. And I’m a bit concerned about the evidence the rheumatologist thinks he needs to see (rather than accept is happening to you) before he ‘believes’ your joints swell. And why if he knows that in PsA pain is more prevalent is he ‘sticking’ so rigidly to what he says is required. As Sybil also said. So over your next 8 weeks, please take pictures on your phone of any swelling and get his secretary’s email address so you can send them to her as they occur. At least that way, he gets his (Irish swear words - fill in as appropriate) evidence! A skilled rheumatologist can ‘feel’ the inflammation without having to see it via swelling too.

I’m feeling as grumpy as Sybil I think. And I don’t even yet potentially qualify for biologics, given sulfasalazine is presently working for me with no side effects.

I’d seriously question this from an ethics point of view as there’s surely a way around it without making sure you have a miserable 8 weeks. This for me would be unacceptable treatment. The UK’s protocols don’t differ hugely from tntlamb’s description of the USA ones as regards the ethics at least. Truly they don’t. Doctors aren’t permitted to make you potentially suffer like this.

You’re making me glad I got the NHS to fund me to get treated in Bath instead of Kent. I didn’t much care for the rheumatologist I got to see in Kent. However I know I can be nightmare patient for any treating doctor and that others just couldn’t dream of being as demanding as I can be at times, but there’s nothing to say you have to accept his proposal of this treatment. Seriously. Given he’s a rheumatologist and given every single day he’s prescribing biologics for other patients that require them, and given every day he’s negotiating the funding obstacle course, I’m pretty sure he’s not making all his patients potentially endure 8 weeks of potential hell before appropriate treatment. Or if he is, then I’m afraid that’s just wrong.

Sorry I’ve gone off on one haven’t I? That might not be helpful to you but truly do think about his proposal as it doesn’t just sound daft, it sounds very wrong.

Best of luck.

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Hello Poo_therapy,

I have to admit you have a good point. I can clearly see what you’re saying, and your’e right from an ethical point of view it doesn’t sound right. However, I can see his point as well. I think he feels that if the methotrexate has done little to nothing to help so far, then stopping it and getting it out of my system will allow for my true symptoms to be revealed and then he can try again to treat accordingly (and hopefully with the biologics).

All I want is to feel some what normal again and to be honest if it means feeling poorly for a short time to eventually feel well again, I am willing to give it a go. I am worn down with navigating through the NHS. I have had to do this not only for myself, but for my daughter as well and it has been years. I will think it through over the weekend and if I change my mind, I will contact him to discuss further.

Thank you so much for taking your time to reply and for the advice.

Nicole x

Just a thought … the NICE guidelines refer to the ‘need’ for a certain number of swollen/tender joints. I have never known how to interpret that slash, or how it is interpreted by rheumys. Seems to me it could mean ‘and’ or it could mean ‘or’. Well, in general, my most swollen joints have not been tender, inside me they may be tender as hell, but they’re not usually tender on palpation. By contrast, my joints that are not swollen but hurt nonetheless do tend to be tender on palpation. What I’m looking for is rheumy ‘wriggle room’. It’s most definitely a thing.

I am now wondering which hospital you go to in Kent. Would you pm me please with that info. - if you wish, anyway - as I may have some insights, I’m in the same county. CCG cash is in short supply here to put it mildly! I thought I’d got quite good at navigating the NHS but since moving to Kent, which in many respects is a smashing county, I’ve had to up my game lol. And I need to up it further!

I so understand, Nicole. Navigating the NHS is exhausting all on its own, irrespective of how crappy you feel because you have PsA. The whole thing can be just so overwhelming, even though you’ve got such a positive outlook. I’d be really happy to chat it all through with you if that helped. Although Sybil is far, far more experienced than me in all this.

And Sybil is also right, CCG cash is short supply. I got lucky and transferred my treatment out of Kent to what I consder to be a centre of excellence within the NHS for PsA before everyone decided cash etc was in short supply.

However all rheumatologists have to negotiate the same NICE funding issues, irrespective of how specialised they are in one disease or another or how they’re rated by their peers or where they may be based in NHS England (as against Scotland or Wales). What’s bothering me is the method your rheumatologist appears to think is appropriate. Ethically that raises big issues for me.

As an aside Bath apologised to me (unasked) for making me try mxt again given it so doesn’t like me. That was so refreshing as at the time, I was finding the treatment paths I was being told to follow, something akin to a horrid form of unnecessary torture that so didn’t seem right. And Bath agreed wholeheartedly. That felt so much better emotionally, if nothing else, I can tell you.

I was lucky me and sulfasalazine got along so well. But I whinged on the phone after three months starting it that it wasn’t doing enough in my view and was told then at my next appintment (about 3 weeks away), that they would consider biologics. However in the meantime I was to up the sulfalsalazine to 6 per day. That worked like a magic spell, So my point is, my treatment wasn’t left hanging in the method your rheumatologist seems to think is appropriate.

I also didn’t exhibit much that could be seen in either blood tests etc or swollen joints. But the rheumatologist could feel the inflammation in the joints anyway. Properly trained hands I’m guessing. So she seemed to satisfy herself on ‘swollen/tender’ joint issue anyway. And I had photos to show her of what I could be like which are thankfully quite gross.

But knowingly leaving you for 8 weeks to most likely flare badly so doesn’t seem right. Either the mxt helped or it didn’t and surely he doesn’t have to have you prove your disease to him yet again, or indeed prove the extent of it? After all he’s given the diagnosis, he’s treated you, that treatment isn’t doing enough, it seems that’s clear, so obviously needs to be changed, so why make you suffer for a further 8 weeks? NICE is tough on its requirements but even it doesn’t require patients to reprove their disease in this way. What were you like before mxt was prescribed? Obviously you required it then?

Do you see my point? I hope so. Unlike Katie @Katie909 above you’re not preparing yourself for a clinical trial, you’re just needing different meds. And whatever the hurdles from NICE, as Sybil says, he needs to be employing his ‘wriggle room’ potentially more intelligently.

However it could be I’m just not experienced enough yet since my treatment is doing its stuff for now. But I’d be raising hell on water, if I was told to effectively allow this disease to blow up again before I got the next tranche of meds. Why risk the further damage it does? Any damage it does, rarely can be undone as we all know so well.

Sorry I know you’re exhausted presently and me ranting on is probably not hugely helpful, but this truly makes me see red. Bug hugs. x

Frustrated in Maryland
Hi,I was so with seronegative arthritis 1 year ago.At the time one finger and one toe were bruised appearing (no injury andout of the blue), and they were painful.My Rheum put me on SSZ ( I take 6/day). My Rheum left and I had to see another one before I could get my Rx filled.This Rheum was awful! He told me all my lab work is neg,I don’t have the “ sausage fingers”, and he sees no reason that I am on SSZ. I should mention that in the past 10 years I have had a Miriad of health issues- eye and facial swelling/redness ( was admitted for 2 days), chest wall swelling along with pleurisy ( out of the blue), with lung lining swelling,terrible stomach issues, a cast for sudden Achilles’ tendon issues,then a walking boot for 4 months then another tendon tear ( had to have surgery), and joint pain and stiffness.I have never had good luck except for the Rheum who left and the only type of arthritis that seems to fit with all this is Psoriatic arthritis.(I forgot to mention sores in my mouth that come and go).I am at a loss as to what to do.He did give me a refill of SSZ for my“ hand pain”,and said he could justify an MRI OF my other hand ( couldn’t feel tendons)?, but I am back to thinking I’m stuck with a chance of future issues with no clear ex.I know this sounds crazy but I wish for once my lab work would come back positive.Any advice?

First sentence should say “ I was diagnosed with sero neg arthritis”.

It sounds to me like you need to find yourself a different rheumatologist, quite honestly. Any chance you can do that? It’s not uncommon for bloodtests, and xrays to show very little either.

In the USA either CASPAR or Moll and Wright are the criteria used for Diagnoses. NOTE that blood work has nothing to do with it. (CASPAR has pretty much replaced Moll and Wright)

Classification Criteria for Psoriatic Arthritis (CASPAR) Criteria
The Classification Criteria for Psoriatic Arthritis (CASPAR) criteria published in 2006 has been gaining acceptance in both research and clinical practice. Statistically developed through validated study, the CASPAR criteria have been evaluated as simple, easy to use and with a high degree of specificity and sensitivity.

The diagnosis of psoriatic arthritis based on the CASPAR criteria requires the presence of inflammatory arthritis (in the joints, spine, or entheses – connective tissue between tendons and bone) with more than 3 points from 5 categories. The presence of current psoriasis is assigned 2 points, while all other clinical features are assigned 1 point:

Current psoriasis, prior personal history of psoriasis, or family history of psoriasis
Nail psoriasis, including onycholysis (detachment of nail from the nail bed), pitting, and hyperkeratosis (thickening of the nail)
Absence of rheumatoid factor in blood tests
Current or prior history of dactylitis (sausage-like inflammation of the fingers and/or toes)
Radiographic evidence of periarticular new bone formation (excluding osteophytes) on x-rays of the hand or foot

Previous Criteria – Moll and Wright Criteria

Researchers Moll and Wright established the original criteria for psoriatic arthritis in 1973, which is the oldest and most widely known guide to diagnosing psoriatic arthritis. 2 To meet the Moll and Wright classification for psoriatic arthritis, a person with psoriasis who presented with inflammatory arthritis, and had a negative blood test for rheumatoid arthritis, must also meet one of these five subtypes:

Polyarticular, symmetric arthritis – affecting many joints on mirror sides of the body
Oligoarticular and asymmetric – fewer than five joints affected, occurring only on one side of the body
Distal interphalangeal joint predominant – affecting mainly the joints furthest from the center of the body in the fingers and toes
Spondylitis predominant – affecting mainly the joints between the vertebrae in the spine
Arthritis mutilans – the most severe form of psoriatic arthritis which causes digital shortening of the fingers or toes associated with severe bone destruction

When it comes to medication there really are no criteria in the USA except some insurance companies require what is known as “Step therapy” starting with NSAIDs progressing to DMARDS and finally the Biologic DMARDS until something works. HOWEVER all that can be thrown out the window when there is either active Psoriasis in which case Biologics can be started immediately by your Dermatologist (and the occasional Rheumy) We call this the back door. It works in OZ, Canada and the UK as well. I was started immediately on the Biologics because of cardiac and Spinal involvement at my first appointment. I actually walked out the door with my Enbrel kit. It seems more the case that it depends on the docs willingness to fill out paperwork and her “reputation” as much as anything.

If you click on the three dots icon below your post, a pencil appears. That’s your magic editing pencil! Tap on it, and you can change anything that you want in it.
Why did the designers hide it? Good question! LOL
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