None of these drugs wil work anyway

Just was at the reumathologist… A new one again… She said stop the Arava cause of the side effects… which I agree on… But then said that none of the drugs would help the tendons anyway so her plan was to just don’t give me anything… Except the diclofenac…

I told her that scared me… because the damage can happen even when you don’t have noticeable inflammation in the joints… She repeated that I didn’t respond to any of the drugs available… so I said that there’s way more options then what I’ve been on… She’s going to ask all the reumathologists in their weekly meeting on Tuesday about a new drug or other options…

She mentioned a rehabilitation doctor and after I asked about a PsA specialist said she would send me for a second opinion to a specialist but that they see a lot of PsA patients… (I doubt that there are “a lot” of PsA patients in the whole country…)

What if they all give up on me?..

Eh? I’ve heard it all now. Oh Cynthia … big sigh.

Are you actually saying that your rheumy is confident that you have PsA but is planning to give you nothing whatsoever for it (except diclofenac)?

I’d like to know more about the tendon thing myself. I’m pretty much enthesitis woman at the moment and was under the impression that the drugs don’t help it but haven’t actually asked any rheumatologist whether that is so. But there’s the underlying disease process, the fatigue, the risk of joint damage … surely that requires treatment as you say?

Well I guess you have made some headway in that she agreed to refer you to a PsA specialist. Make sure that happens, it could be the very best thing to come out of this appointment. And also maybe the Tuesday meeting will bear fruit …

Main thing is that you don’t give up on you, which you won’t, we won’t let you!! You’ll get there.

She’s not entirely incorrect. About the only thing that will help the tendons is dicloflonac (an NSAID) and physical rehab. As tendons have no actual nervous or circulatory system there really is no medication that will help them. Strengthing the area and stabilizing the surrounding structures is critical. FWIW I spend nearly an hour a day with various stretching routines etc to keep those things mobile.

PsA is NOT all that rare about 25% of all arthritis falls into the Seronegative area and all is treated the same way. Not sure what meds you have tried so can’t comment on the options.

They won’t give up on you, at least not as long as you work with them. Changing doctors because you don’t agree with their treatment course can be a red flag. If you concentrate on “pain” with every new doc is a big problem. Fubction on the otherhand is a whole different bag. ASKING questions based on your research is fine as long as you listen to the answers.

Pain and inflammation of joints ar entirely different issues. Ther can be significant pain even with disease that is under control. pain relief comes from rehabing not a medication. Its a LOT of work. Again foe me it involves 3 -4 physical sessions a day. For others here its daily pool work, walking or any other number of programs. two phrases anyone with inflammatory arthritis need to live by are “Motion is Lotion” and “what doesn’t move rusts”

We talk a lot about medication here but the fact is that is less than 1/3 of controlling the disease. ANYONE here who has disease control, you will find is also involved in some sort of physical activity/rehab program and has adopted a very strict lifestyle/diet.

Rehab hurts. Sometimes it hurts more than the disease, but it is the only way to maintain any semblance of a normal life style. The inescapable fact is that unless you commit tp all phases of a PsA *(or arthritis program) NO medication will work.

I feel like giving up…
How the fuck am I supposed to ask for a PsA specialist without asking for a new doctor? How the fuck am I supposed to agree with her if she tells me to take nothing when everyone here says that I shouldn’t ever do that?!?!?!?!

I realize I hadn’t pasted in all of my reponse so please re read it. and for gosh sake START a rehab program and evaluate your lifestyle/diet. Not one of us have had success that hasn’t done that. Dicloflonac IS medication, and a good one. There is plenty of research that show it does control disease progression to a point. 40 grand a year for biologics isn’t a guarantee of anything.

Yeah you mean well but you assume I’m not doing anything…

It’s never good enough I’m a horrible terrible person I don’t get what the point is in trying to help me… Just kill me and be done with iy

Only people who are amazing at communication should be helped… They should just shoot everyone who can’t communicate because there’s no point in trying to help… They don’t want to help themselves anyway!

So what is your program? tendon Pain requires some pretty specialized stuff. TENS with stretching is pretty effective. The PTs have some pretty good manipulation techniques as well. I love it when I get their “rolling stretching” kind of like a good massage. Although I have to admit with my latest go round with these folks I have come close to tears a time or two.

Monday I was bouncing a medicine ball off a re bounder while standing on one foot on a two inch thick piece of foam. The young gal got a bit push about my effort and mysteriously the ball went slightly sideways barely missing her. That earned me 10 minutes walking sideways on the treadmill… (my very least favorite) AND we ran out of time for my massage. IT WAS WORTH IT :slight_smile:

Nobody has access to your harts all we can do is figure out how what you are saying relates to our own experience. If we need more information, you need to give it,

You’re allowed to assume I do nothing and don’t already see like 5 different people all for a tiny part and only that part… You’re allowed to think all I do is complain about pain at the doctor… And all because I didn’t think to mention it…

If I’m doing it just for me I don’t get why I’m even trying…

Cynthia, I hear you, and I appreciate your frustration right now. There is nothing simple about PsA, and there is nothing fair about what you’ve been through. It is awful, I know that. I’ve been there. I’ve felt that. I remember only too well the “talking to” that I got from tntlamb in the fall of 2012: he basically said “get off your butt right now and find another doctor who will give you the treatment you need.” (Except that he was far more diplomatic than that. ROFL… not!)

Your latest rheumatologist hasn’t been very encouraging, except that she did say she was going to run your case by her colleagues. Have you made a follow up appointment for some time soon after that? Someone, somewhere, has a medical gps which will point you in the right direction.

You write well. Please make a list of all of the ways your pain and fatigue affects your life. Be specific. Include “trivia” like “When I come home from work, I cannot summon the energy to cook.” The list can – and should – be long. That list will form the basis of your next medical consults, and “agenda” if you wish. See if that changes the way the medics deal with you.

More later, but I need to go to the pool and work this body of mine. If I don’t I will be very sorry.

C

Cynthia, there are plenty of us here who know our ABC of PsA really well, but tntlamb knows more and pretty much everything he’s said about PsA over the years (I cross reference everything with my rheumy) has turned out to be very helpful to me. That deeper knowledge needs digesting, especially when we’re confused and worried.

I’m really interested in this discussion, I’m already thinking I might ask about diclofenac, which goes against my caution re. NSAIDs. That’s how it goes … generally long-standing NSAIDs use is not desirable (I think!) but it’s looking like some of them may be very useful in some circumstances. Also pondering the fact that enthesitis has hit me hard since I’ve been without a Tai Chi class.

We all make assumptions too, it’s not necessarily because people are poor communicators, just that nobody can include every single thing in their posts.

Sorry if my anger on your behalf wound you up in earlier response. Hang on in there and lets see what comes out of all this that can really help you move forward.

If you kick me I’ll lie down and crawl under a rock…

So lets talk about what a rheumy does in an appointment and how he makes decisions regarding medication. maybe it will help a bit. First lets talk about tendons as that is one of the “main” PsA things. There are three maincauses (unless its an acute situation with a particular tendon. Enthesitis, sheath inflammation (not all tendons have sheaths) and mechanical. NONE of the DMARDs or Biologicals will have any effect, For enthesitis and sheath inflammation NSAIDs are the treatment of choice (occasionally a quick run of steroid are tried to get a head start on the inflammation will be tried) Usually however it is a mechanical issue caused by balance issues, asymmetric muscle development, muscle group weakness etc. A rheumy is not trained in this area and will almost always refer you out to a PT, a medical Doc called a physiatrist, or a multidisciplinary pain management group. For an acute situation usually the referral is made to an orthopod who will test and/or image looking for injury. he will ALWAYS even if he does find injury try NSAIDs (sometimes several different ones) and several rounds of PT RehaB befor lookingat other solution/repairs including injections and surgery.

Having a diagnoses isn’t enough for “meds” Arthritis meds are very powerful and all have side effects so there is a point where the risks of these meds vs the benefits makes sense. The most common way the do eill determine this is joint by joint. Its call palpitation. Really all he does is push or squeeze the joint until he can see the whites of his finger nails. While he is doing this there are a few reactions he is looking for. YOUR response is the least considered. He counts how many of these joints react “badly” Generally they will not add a DMARD or Biologic (or even consider it) until the bad reactions reach 9. (it varties depending on which) There are several joints however in the feet, hands, spine and hips that count more with PsA.

When these two areas are evaluated he checks for "sausage joints, nail changes, and active psoriasis. Each anonomally is scored. Most of these guys can do it in their sleep. When the score reaches a certain point whether it is the New York scale Eular scale and/or several others The next step in determining treatment is decided.

The other way through the door is “time” For most this means a consistent medication regime, and DOCUMENTED physical rehab. Usually this is 6 months/trial. We call it the “gap” around here and it is by far the most frustrating time with PsA., They make few change during these periods but may add some medications Usually these are Tricyclics or other families of antidepressants. They use these to snap the immune system to attention and do its pain management job. They usually are a part of any long term program

One of the frustrations is finding a doc. Its not always a matter of competancy but its is ALWAYS a matter of matching communication styles. Sometime that isn’t possib’e and you just have to trust. In the USA we have a competitive system, docs who don’t make their patients well don’t make much money. Rheumatology is the most poorly paid specialty as they have no procedures to add to the bottom line so they all have some incentive to do well.

Now here the part NONE of us like… Rheumies are board certified meaning they have RULES to follow and they are the same rules no matter which one you go to (not that they don’t fudge sometimes but it is a small piece of fudge at that) If you don’t have 9 bad joints (meaning signs of inflammation) or the right ones inflamed, they will all do the same. PT and NSAIDs…

What happened to if you have PsA you need to treat aggressively?.. I’ve never had 9 inflamed joints… since I was 18 when I first started drugs I’ve never had an inflamed joint… and then only 1… and 2 (one at a time) in history… every time I came in with pain they upped or changed my meds… until a few years ago when they suddenly said some pain was not going away… So I accepted (=ignored the pain) that and kept going… I didn’t complain about the pain because they couldn’t help me anyway… But at the end of last year it just got too much… I couldn’t get trough a day without crying… Because I was a failure… not because of the pain because I ignored the pain but because I as a person wasn’t capable to do the same as everyone else…

Yes they said lose weight and eat healthy… If I was smoking they would have said that too and don’t drink don’t cross the road with your eyes closed… They never said I was only getting worse if I wouldn’t… And they didn’t say go to a PT and ask them what things you should and shouldn’t do…

No one ever told me you can ask for help if you can’t do it yourself… They only said it was easy you only have to do it… Just…

And now it’s all my fault! I’ve done everything wrong! It’s my fault I’ve been depressed all my live! All I had to do was ask for help… Or even stay in bed all day every day! Like a normal depressed person… Then everyone would have helped me… Stupid girl for just putting one foot in front of the other so I wouldn’t get yelled at! I’ve never taken a risk… ever… When my parents told me I couldn’t hit my sister I didn’t… when they then told me I couldn’t break her stuff I didn’t… When they told me I couldn’t break my own stuff I didn’t… They never noticed me hurting myself so they never told me to stop that…

I feel like everyone got a pamflet explaining how live works except me… Or maybe you learn those things from friends? I never had someone who thought of me as their best friend…

And now I’m broken… I just can’t anymore… And suddenly I have to be fixed right away… for months everyone saw me struggling and didn’t say anything… and now there all yeah well I knew you weren’t doing ok… I didn’t know I wasn’t… I thought I was just lazy and weak or something… And maybe I am… The psych said my pain is in my head… I can walk so she must be right…

Also they never checked where the pain is other then it’s my tendons…

Well I hope you aren’t getting that from here, because that is not the case. I’m going to say something that I never do on these boards AND I mean never and thats somethin Touchy Feely and I am not sure how that comes across in dutch so PLEASE bear with me as this is out of my arena. FWIW I have 10 kids, sveral grands living with me and and prolly 40 or 50 former foster kids who I still parent along with the 10 we adopted so I am ALWAYS id a dad role. even though they are grown. I was a military officer, teacher professor scientist in my non retired life and I was tough and demanding (and quick to back off if necessary. So with all of that think of me as a Dad talking and not some stranger sitting behind a key board.

You are way underestimating yourself. Its clear you are bright, intelligent and responsible. You put OTHERs before yourself and love unconditionally. AND now you are beating yourself up because you believe for some reason you aren’t doing enough. STOP I. You can only do what you can do and if you have done it and done your best, You are a total success. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY is ALLOWED to take it from you. I can give you some good clues how to navigate the system and get what you want IF you play the game. Its not right sometimes but you can do it anyway. and if that means taking an NSAID that likley gives you a stomach ache and going to physical rehab THEN do it. You don’t have to like it but think of it as chess move. Sometimes a chess move involves giving up a piece in order to win. DO IT. Its a long term strategy.

Now the real touchy feely stuff. I have woke up in the night thinking about you, I have spoken to several of my colleagues here wondering WHAT we can do for you. We care far more about you than you think or know.

My opinion is you have one or more people in your life that you love dearly and unconditionally. Thats as it should be i a perfect world. But this isn’t a perfect world (or there would be no PsA for young people at least) Some of those people to who you have given so much, ar not giving YOU the unconditional support YOU deserve. The sad fact is unless they support you unconditionally they are not supporting you fully and unconditionally they are not supporting you at all. (that doesn’t mean they aren’t allowed to tell you to unglue your backside from the “pity pot” and do something but their love and unconditional support is Always clear. Ragging on you EVER is not acceptable. There is never a reason you can’t ask for and receive help. (sometimes it may be different than what you are expecting but thats okay, no thanks is an acceptable response)

Anyone in your “real life” who is bringing you down (and I have at least one in mind) needs only to hear one thing from you (and this is why I love being the senior mod around here because no one will moderate me except Seenie) Two words. F#!@ OFF. You deserve bett tha you are getting.

Life is damn near impossible at 23. You in today’s world are very much a “kid” There so many balls to keep in the air, most can’t do it especially when relationships enter the picture. If one of them is chronic illness NO 23 year old can do it without some serious help and support.

But I have to keep my character, all pain IS in the head. IF you can walk you can deal with it IF you have and take support and help. Of course you have to have it available and have to be specific what you ask for, You are surrounded by several THOUSAND moms and dads, teachers, counselors, retired doctors and bunch of others who are TOUGH, but trust me, we all get it and we all managed to become mostly functioning adults.

I’ll do anything I can for you. Just keep in mind I’m a crusty old fart.

TJ

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Lets help with that. Go to: Track Symptoms of Rheumatoid Arthritis and read up on Track and react. Down load the phone app or the web tool if you don’t have a smart phone. Track Symptoms of Rheumatoid Arthritis

Use it religiously. ALL of it especially pain points and activity. Print what you can and take your device to your next appointment to fill in the rest. Rheumies LOVE data. I bet a nickle it will help you with whichever doc you land with.

In fact look at ALL the tools there (left menu), I am very familiar with several of them :wink:

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I only moderate tnt when I disagree with him. :blush:

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I’ve gone through a lot of the same things that you have, including being ready to really re-think by rheumy. I didn’t change by the way. One of the big things that I’ve done for myself is to ask for PT. When I have tendon issues that just won’t go away, even with daily NSAID use over a period of time, I request PT. I’m a frequent flyer, and they’ve learned that I can test out a new PT and really put them through the paces because I am very flexible but also have many joints with damage and/or pain. Meaning that they need to come up with many different strategies for strengthening the same zone. Plus I’m frequently needing PT for both side; both hips, both knees, both ankles, etc.

I have done long term NSAID use, and it did do really well for the first bit of time on it’s own. Over time we’ve added in plaquenil, then leflunomide, then finally took away the plaquenil when I’ve started a biologic. I didn’t go on a biologic until 7 years (I think) post diagnosis.

When it’s just a few joints at a time you also have the option of treating locally. Personally I’ve got large joint and small joint involvement, so in my hands alone I’ll typically have over 5 inflamed joints. And yes, the rheumy feels the joints, and puts me through motions. We have had a number of people who say that the rheumy never feels their joints. That is something major to question.

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Cynthia, first thing’s first, gentle digital hugs from me. It’s very apparent that you’re going through a hell of a tough time right now, and while I can do little more than try to reinforce that you are definitely not alone in your thoughts above. Dark thoughts tend to breed darker ones, and it can be hard to get out of that loop.

I understand that well, and have a fair number of physical and mental scars from those times when I went down those dark loops myself, so trust me, you’re really not alone on this stuff.

Do not let yourself go down those loops, and if you feel yourself doing that, reach out to a friend who you can count on to be a rock, or even these forums.

Know that, even though tntlamb, as he describes himself, is a crusty old fart, I’ve never seen anything he’s said on these forums as motivated by anything other than concern. I believe he wants you to get better, or at least better treatment.

(Side note: I’ve known some folks like lamb in my time, and I consider it an honor to have counted some of them as my friends. They’re generally the kind of person you can count to have your back, no matter the situation, even if they’re kicking your ass at the same time.

I’m also pretty sure he and I have the same person in mind here, too, and I agree.)

I understand where you’re coming from on not being told things, especially by someone who’s supposed to be treating what you’re being told from everywhere can be a very aggressive disease. Doctors and communication can be super fun, especially when you have to find out from elsewhere that a step is necessary and they’re not telling you that. That’s one section where I would say you need to find a different Rheum, but, it also depends on how they may react to you bringing up the information to them. Are they receptive, are they willing to work with you, etc?

For example, my rheum hasn’t brought up PT (and I forgot last time). They want me to do stretches every morning to help with the stiffness, but never mentioned anything other than that. I’ll be bringing that up to them next appointment, always assuming pain levels remain at the manageable levels they’re currently at. While my rheum has a lot more wiggle room in my mind, cause he’s a loveable old gnome man who is awesome otherwise, and I’m not giving him away, his response to that if he was otherwise would give me pause on returning to him, depending on the answer.

Which is a long winded way of saying - no one here is judging you. We don’t think you’re doing this to yourself, we don’t blame you for your disease and disability. I don’t believe anyone would blame you for not doing something you weren’t being told by an authority figure you should be doing.

You’re not alone, and you are cared for, at least around here.

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