awesome post
Thank you to everyone who commented! So much 'Food for thought' *smirk*.
So many different views and opinions which is great and totally what I wanted to see!
I think I can summarize:
1) Everyone reacts completely differently to changing diets.
2) Paleo may help some and is something I should read more about but conflicts with my low fat veg /fish based diet.
3) I am not the only one who has ever eaten horse meat. (Fact: Raw horsemeat is a delicacy in Japan)
4) Eating a 'from scratch',whole foods, non-processed and well rounded diet is probably the safest bet!
5) I am still going to continue with the elimination but want to gradually get most foods that are good for me back in the rotation.
Thank you all for your contributions. I will continue on my bland diet and will add in my most missed foods (right now eggs and tomatoes) one at a time while keeping a detailed journal of my symptoms and diet. After a few months of this I will report back. I plan to practice this elimination diet as my new religion for the next 6 months as I really have nothing better to do being off work... so I will let you all know what I find.
I am also starting Humira in January... so this may strongly effect results...and that is something to keep in mind...Nevermind, I still will enjoy cooking and eating uber-healthy as cooking yummy food was getting boring anyway! On to the challenge of making my limited diet more exciting! Tonight's dinner: Baked salmon with paprika and cumin and stir fried, non-nightshade veg in EVOO, garlic, ginger and lemongrass was pretty damn tasty. I omitted the chick peas this time. Wish me luck with breakfast!
You may have been the only one that had horse meat, but I ate roach soup. What's sick is that I enjoyed it. Didn't know until my friends found them in their bowl. Too late, already finished mine. They said it was a deli. Oh, well...tried not to think much of it. Still gross, do not recommend it.
Hi all. Interesting discussion so far. Hope y’all don’t mind me adding my experiences to the discussion.
I was one of those folks that never saw any link between diet and disease activity and believed my doctors when they affirmed there’s no link. And in one sense, I still believe that, as I don’t find specific foods to be flare-inducing for me. That being said, I have done some significant dietary changes that have helped me so well, I’m on the point of a long-term sustained remission (over a year with no medications and very little disease activity…PsA or P). This was important, as I am sensitive to many of the medications prescribed for PsA, and had stomach issues from all the Celebrex I had taken over the years, and was having some alarming liver numbers from the MtX along with terrible SE…so it was important to figure out a new path ASAP for me.
I’m generally a slow-foodist these days, as I make most of my (and my family’s) meals from scratch, and mainly use whole (heritage) grains, local sourced ingredients, and no factory-farmed meats.
But the biggest change for me is daily juicing of fruits & vegetables…high on the vegetable component. I juice 10-12 cups of chopped veggies/fruits every day, which give me 3-4 daily juice “doses” that I drink every 4 hours.
I had been following the research of a California doctor that showed demonstrable disease improvement after sustained exposure to high amounts of phyto-nutrients, consumed daily, and I figured it was worth trying…how can significantly increasing one’s fresh veggie intake be bad?
I regularly juice: carrots, kale, lemon, ginger, beets, parsley, pineapple, apple…and add in seasonal fruits/veg as they are available at my local farmer’s market, like spinach, celery, collared greens, etc…
I try to pack as many “green leafy” veggies into my juices as I can handle too, especially Kale! I have become a kale lover in this process.
For me, the change in disease activity was gradual…it took a couple of months of this daily regime before I started noticing physical changes, but I definitely noticed a reduction of inflammation (and pain), and then the changes started really becoming noticeable.
I started documenting the process and the changes, taking photos of my fingers and toes at periodic intervals, as my Psoriatic nails and DIP inflammation were the most outwardly “visible” signs of my disease, and had been at times pretty bad over the past decade, and no medications had really done much to reduce these areas much…especially the damage from the stubborn nail P.
What I began to witness was a slow “re-wiring” of my system, from an inside-out way, and it was beginning to show in my photo updates. It was a wonderful surprise seeing new non-diseased nail growing out in areas that had been badly deformed over the years!
Also, I was noticing significant reduction of inflammation/pain in my lumbar spine and SI joints, and some of my other problematic areas, that had been raging off and on for the last decade. It got to the point that I was strong enough to wean off the medications and try to go “au naturel” for a while.
That “little while” has since turned into 1.5 years + of medication-free life with very minimal to no disease activity, and even when I’ve had a minor flares, they’ve resolved themselves quickly, and without resorting to medications or painkillers. For the most part, I’ve been living a pretty normal life since.
I wonder if I had been improperly nourishing my body all of these years…
Anyhow, sorry about the epistle…it’s hard to write this stuff concisely and not sound like a rabid diet fanboy…but I wanted to share what has been working for me, better than anything I’ve taken to date! And the side benefit is that I feel great most of the time, and have tons more energy than I have in a long time…which is especially helpful since I am at-home, raising 2 kids under age 5.
Peace.
Lol! I had the same experience with the horse meat... I was at an end of year party with my workmates in Japan... they thought it would be funny -knowing I grew up with ponies-to challenge me to eat this dark thinly shaved mystery meat. I was quite used to the 'challenge the foreigner to eat something weird' game and could have guessed what it was. I ate it, after a round of 'challenge' chanting and then was the animal source was revealed to me, which left everyone satisfactorily amused. It tasted okay and was definitely not the weirdest thing I had eaten in that country! That being said...there are tonnes of roaches in Japan ... and no one eats them! Ew?
Gelita said:
You may have been the only one that had horse meat, but I ate roach soup. What's sick is that I enjoyed it. Didn't know until my friends found them in their bowl. Too late, already finished mine. They said it was a deli. Oh, well...tried not to think much of it. Still gross, do not recommend it.
Hmmm...definitely got me thinking :) Any tasty kale based juice recipes on hand? I have a bunch of kale in my fridge atm! :)
grooveh said:
Hi all. Interesting discussion so far. Hope y'all don't mind me adding my experiences to the discussion.
I was one of those folks that never saw any link between diet and disease activity and believed my doctors when they affirmed there's no link. And in one sense, I still believe that, as I don't find specific foods to be flare-inducing for me. That being said, I have done some significant dietary changes that have helped me so well, I'm on the point of a long-term sustained remission (over a year with no medications and very little disease activity...PsA or P). This was important, as I am sensitive to many of the medications prescribed for PsA, and had stomach issues from all the Celebrex I had taken over the years, and was having some alarming liver numbers from the MtX along with terrible SE...so it was important to figure out a new path ASAP for me.
I'm generally a slow-foodist these days, as I make most of my (and my family's) meals from scratch, and mainly use whole (heritage) grains, local sourced ingredients, and no factory-farmed meats.
But the biggest change for me is daily juicing of fruits & vegetables...high on the vegetable component. I juice 10-12 cups of chopped veggies/fruits every day, which give me 3-4 daily juice "doses" that I drink every 4 hours.
I had been following the research of a California doctor that showed demonstrable disease improvement after sustained exposure to high amounts of phyto-nutrients, consumed daily, and I figured it was worth trying...how can significantly increasing one's fresh veggie intake be bad?
I regularly juice: carrots, kale, lemon, ginger, beets, parsley, pineapple, apple...and add in seasonal fruits/veg as they are available at my local farmer's market, like spinach, celery, collared greens, etc...
I try to pack as many "green leafy" veggies into my juices as I can handle too, especially Kale! I have become a kale lover in this process.
For me, the change in disease activity was gradual...it took a couple of months of this daily regime before I started noticing physical changes, but I definitely noticed a reduction of inflammation (and pain), and then the changes started really becoming noticeable.
I started documenting the process and the changes, taking photos of my fingers and toes at periodic intervals, as my Psoriatic nails and DIP inflammation were the most outwardly "visible" signs of my disease, and had been at times pretty bad over the past decade, and no medications had really done much to reduce these areas much...especially the damage from the stubborn nail P.
What I began to witness was a slow "re-wiring" of my system, from an inside-out way, and it was beginning to show in my photo updates. It was a wonderful surprise seeing new non-diseased nail growing out in areas that had been badly deformed over the years!
Also, I was noticing significant reduction of inflammation/pain in my lumbar spine and SI joints, and some of my other problematic areas, that had been raging off and on for the last decade. It got to the point that I was strong enough to wean off the medications and try to go "au naturel" for a while.
That "little while" has since turned into 1.5 years + of medication-free life with very minimal to no disease activity, and even when I've had a minor flares, they've resolved themselves quickly, and without resorting to medications or painkillers. For the most part, I've been living a pretty normal life since.
I wonder if I had been improperly nourishing my body all of these years...
Anyhow, sorry about the epistle...it's hard to write this stuff concisely and not sound like a rabid diet fanboy...but I wanted to share what has been working for me, better than anything I've taken to date! And the side benefit is that I feel great most of the time, and have tons more energy than I have in a long time...which is especially helpful since I am at-home, raising 2 kids under age 5.
Peace.
First, thank you Ilika for supporting me in the manner you did. It’s an often controversial view.
Re Gelita’s comment “Science has fully demonstrated the body needs’ for decades. I have never heard of any doctor, nutritionist, dietician, or health advisor to go against the Health Department’s recommendation.
We can argue until the cows come home, Science is Science.”
If we’re talking about food I respectfully beg to differ. Just where do they get “the science”? I know here in Canada, the Ministry of Health issues Canada’s Food Guide updating it when necessary. I suspect the U.S. Food Guide Pyramid is nearly identical. It is this guide that doctors, nutritionists, dieticians, schools, etc. follow. When the last one was released I read that much work was involved to arrive at the conclusions involving both health and food industry officials. Food industry officials? You can bet your bootie each and every food industry rep was substantiating that the food products they marketed would lead to good health. I realized then and there that while many people involved in this decision making effort were clearly interested in the health of Canadians, others were there to make sure their foods were included for the sole purpose of netting profit. Thus, in my opinion, the Food Guide is merely a balance between Canadian’s health and industry’s profit. I think we deserve better. So I look at the Food Guide and those who support it with a little, but not total, skepticism. It’s hard to argue against balanced nutritional requirements. Of course it makes sense. It’s just that the foods promoted to achieve such a result may not be the best for all, for some yes, but not all. (ie: Whole grains may be good for some but who’s to say they’re not good for all? Yet, whole grains remain high on the list of Canada’s Food Guide. And I also have a problem with the sources recommended to obtain nutritional requirements. For example: it might sound like a children’s whole grain breakfast cereal is healthy but it’s not if it’s loaded with salt and sugar. Nutritionalist et al are often loath to disagree and go against the grain. The Food Guide is their work bible.)
Ah sorry I’m such a skeptic. I wish I wasn’t. Life would be easier (lol!)
Here’s a good one I use regularly:
4-6 large carrots
1 apple
1/2 lemon
1 beet
Knuckle of ginger
3-4 leaves of Kale
1 celery stalk
and rats in New York City....
AnnaW said:
Lol! I had the same experience with the horse meat... I was at an end of year party with my workmates in Japan... they thought it would be funny -knowing I grew up with ponies-to challenge me to eat this dark thinly shaved mystery meat. I was quite used to the 'challenge the foreigner to eat something weird' game and could have guessed what it was. I ate it, after a round of 'challenge' chanting and then was the animal source was revealed to me, which left everyone satisfactorily amused. It tasted okay and was definitely not the weirdest thing I had eaten in that country! That being said...there are tonnes of roaches in Japan ... and no one eats them! Ew?
Gelita said:You may have been the only one that had horse meat, but I ate roach soup. What's sick is that I enjoyed it. Didn't know until my friends found them in their bowl. Too late, already finished mine. They said it was a deli. Oh, well...tried not to think much of it. Still gross, do not recommend it.
I believe in Science. My son earns a living in a lab at a college doing research. Science is important to him, and I see how much effort he puts into his work. He works in a team, all a part of a group effort. His degree is in Bio-Physical Chemistry. (Biology/Physics/Chemistry) He teaches medical students.
As a supervisor for Head Start Centers (Yes, government preschool), I worked very closely with the dietician to ensure a well balanced diet for the children, substituting nutrient-for-nutrient to those with food allergies. Always fascinated by nutrition, I read a lot about nutrients in foods and the parts of the body that needs each nutrient to subsist. I also researched how some illnesses are a product of an excess of a specific nutrient, some are a lack of one. Nature seeks balance; our bodies need balance, too. This I learned in my Biology class my first year in college in 1971.
maplegirl said:
First, thank you Ilika for supporting me in the manner you did. It's an often controversial view.
Re Gelita's comment "Science has fully demonstrated the body needs' for decades. I have never heard of any doctor, nutritionist, dietician, or health advisor to go against the Health Department's recommendation.
We can argue until the cows come home, Science is Science."
If we're talking about food I respectfully beg to differ. Just where do they get "the science"? I know here in Canada, the Ministry of Health issues Canada's Food Guide updating it when necessary. I suspect the U.S. Food Guide Pyramid is nearly identical. It is this guide that doctors, nutritionists, dieticians, schools, etc. follow. When the last one was released I read that much work was involved to arrive at the conclusions involving both health and food industry officials. Food industry officials? You can bet your bootie each and every food industry rep was substantiating that the food products they marketed would lead to good health. I realized then and there that while many people involved in this decision making effort were clearly interested in the health of Canadians, others were there to make sure their foods were included for the sole purpose of netting profit. Thus, in my opinion, the Food Guide is merely a balance between Canadian's health and industry's profit. I think we deserve better. So I look at the Food Guide and those who support it with a little, but not total, skepticism. It's hard to argue against balanced nutritional requirements. Of course it makes sense. It's just that the foods promoted to achieve such a result may not be the best for all, for some yes, but not all. (ie: Whole grains may be good for some but who's to say they're not good for all? Yet, whole grains remain high on the list of Canada's Food Guide. And I also have a problem with the sources recommended to obtain nutritional requirements. For example: it might sound like a children's whole grain breakfast cereal is healthy but it's not if it's loaded with salt and sugar. Nutritionalist et al are often loath to disagree and go against the grain. The Food Guide is their work bible.)
Ah sorry I'm such a skeptic. I wish I wasn't. Life would be easier (lol!)
Thanks :D
grooveh said:
Here's a good one I use regularly:
4-6 large carrots
1 apple
1/2 lemon
1 beet
Knuckle of ginger
3-4 leaves of Kale
1 celery stalk
This is very interesting reading!
I’ve been following a low carb, no wheat diet since August when my major yearly flare kicked in big time…last year I the fatigue was so bad I was off work for 4 months. This year with many more joints involved I’m still at work (fingers crossed) Now, first of all I included no nightshades but reintroduced them as I didn’t notice any less inflammation - no change. Reintroduced wheat on 3 occassions and wham! Sofa time! I couldn’t even speak coherantly as the fatigue was so bad the following day. The first time I had the wheat I did so inadvertantly completely forgetting that the pudding was made with wheat flour. So obviously had to try a few more times as I was sceptical that the wheat would make that much difference…3 slices of my Birthday cake later…fatigue
The other benefit I, and everyone around me, notices is my lack of flatulance :). I have also suffer for years with piles that often bleed profusely. Haven’t had any problems from a week into the diet.
So, I don’t know the ‘science’ of the diet questions all I know is some of my problems are better…inflammation is not, my rheumatologist is happy for me to continue with what I’m doing…"if its working for you just carry on"
My take is we are all so different no one diet will fit all, but there’s no harm in listening, trying, and deciding for yourself.
I think the problem here isn't whether or not we trust science. It is rather, how scientific findings are presented to us by the government, drug companies, media and the gazillion dollar health industry. It can get bloody confusing! Not to say the world is one big corrupt mess... but it is definitely not run by scientists and researchers. When it comes to a mystery illness like PsA... we are all really in the dark (scientists and doctors included) and that is why we the patients turn to new diets and crazy fads (beetroot anyone?) when our meds seem not to work or when the side-effects seem not to jive well with out life plans (babies!). The reason for these contradictory and muddled opinions is that there is no direct route to conquering this illness and there may never be. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, in fact there isn't even an agreed upon starting point in terms of treatment options. This is why, in my opinion, being a little skeptical of a half-century old food pyramid is not saying NO to science but is instead merely embracing the incredible complexity of the human body. The important thing, which I think we have established in this discussion, is to have an open mind to new ways of coping with PsA and to take all the established science together with the hearsay to come up with our own unique plan. This approach does involve being skeptical of long held 'truths' but as my Gran always said, 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!'. With regards to PsA We are our own guinea pigs! Fun eh?
Gelita said:
I believe in Science. My son earns a living in a lab at a college doing research. Science is important to him, and I see how much effort he puts into his work. He works in a team, all a part of a group effort. His degree is in Bio-Physical Chemistry. (Biology/Physics/Chemistry) He teaches medical students.As a supervisor for Head Start Centers (Yes, government preschool), I worked very closely with the dietician to ensure a well balanced diet for the children, substituting nutrient-for-nutrient to those with food allergies. Always fascinated by nutrition, I read a lot about nutrients in foods and the parts of the body that needs each nutrient to subsist. I also researched how some illnesses are a product of an excess of a specific nutrient, some are a lack of one. Nature seeks balance; our bodies need balance, too. This I learned in my Biology class my first year in college in 1971.
maplegirl said:
First, thank you Ilika for supporting me in the manner you did. It's an often controversial view.
Re Gelita's comment "Science has fully demonstrated the body needs' for decades. I have never heard of any doctor, nutritionist, dietician, or health advisor to go against the Health Department's recommendation.
We can argue until the cows come home, Science is Science."
If we're talking about food I respectfully beg to differ. Just where do they get "the science"? I know here in Canada, the Ministry of Health issues Canada's Food Guide updating it when necessary. I suspect the U.S. Food Guide Pyramid is nearly identical. It is this guide that doctors, nutritionists, dieticians, schools, etc. follow. When the last one was released I read that much work was involved to arrive at the conclusions involving both health and food industry officials. Food industry officials? You can bet your bootie each and every food industry rep was substantiating that the food products they marketed would lead to good health. I realized then and there that while many people involved in this decision making effort were clearly interested in the health of Canadians, others were there to make sure their foods were included for the sole purpose of netting profit. Thus, in my opinion, the Food Guide is merely a balance between Canadian's health and industry's profit. I think we deserve better. So I look at the Food Guide and those who support it with a little, but not total, skepticism. It's hard to argue against balanced nutritional requirements. Of course it makes sense. It's just that the foods promoted to achieve such a result may not be the best for all, for some yes, but not all. (ie: Whole grains may be good for some but who's to say they're not good for all? Yet, whole grains remain high on the list of Canada's Food Guide. And I also have a problem with the sources recommended to obtain nutritional requirements. For example: it might sound like a children's whole grain breakfast cereal is healthy but it's not if it's loaded with salt and sugar. Nutritionalist et al are often loath to disagree and go against the grain. The Food Guide is their work bible.)
Ah sorry I'm such a skeptic. I wish I wasn't. Life would be easier (lol!)
The food pyramid was replaced a long time ago.
Its easy to tell a quack. They make a point of telling you that thay have knowledge that is rejected by others and then find a way to charge you for it. Be it a special test or. machine it doesn't matter. If they speak in absolutes they are a quack. If they say they believe in a natual approach and pull out a bottle of a natural supplement, they are a quack (there is a place for supplements) If they reject another approach much beyond, it can't hurt, they may may be a quack.
Succinct but true words to live by! Thanks tntlamb!
Sidenote: As a primary school teacher who has taught in both Canada and the UK ... I can assure you the food pyramid is alive and well for our youngsters ... and is mandated!
tntlamb said:
The food pyramid was replaced a long time ago.
Its easy to tell a quack. They make a point of telling you that thay have knowledge that is rejected by others and then find a way to charge you for it. Be it a special test or. machine it doesn't matter. If they speak in absolutes they are a quack. If they say they believe in a natual approach and pull out a bottle of a natural supplement, they are a quack (there is a place for supplements) If they reject another approach much beyond, it can't hurt, they may may be a quack.
PsA is not a picnic for sure. We're all just trying to get better or at least feel better and not one path works. I try not to get upset about all of this because there are worse things but still, it's can be upsetting, not to mention painful. Do researchers know for certain that it's a genetic condition? I've read that some think there is a genetic link. But I guess when all is said and done, no one knows what causes it.
I feel for you younger ones with PsA. It's hard when you have children. That's when mine started. I think my kids were 10, 9 and 7 at the time. And my husband travelled for a living. He is/was a pilot, just newly retired. So he was away back then, at least 4 or 5 days a week - every week, every month, for years.. We didn't live close to any family so I was on my own most of the time. And that's when the PsA was the worst. Tons of pain plus I had a fever for weeks at a time for year or two. The kids didn't understand why I felt so ill all the time. (And they still don't. I guess they think we're super humans!) Frankly I don't know how I got through it but you do, somehow. Looking back it's easy to say what I should have done. I should have taken better care of myself, rested more, etc. but you know how it is. It seems we put everyone first before ourselves. So, I'd say, hang in there, try to keep positive and look after yourselves. This is first and foremost. It's much easier now, at least for me. Kids have left the nest and I have the time to look after myself: with yoga & walking, proper meals (not eating on the run) and I have the time to nap when I feel the need. At this time in my life, I've finally learned to say no to people. Took a long time to learn though. Would have been better to learn this when I was younger, however, better late than never.
The Pyramid was officially abandoned here (USA) in 2005 It was replaced for a few years by a sideways inclined plane (as best as I can describe it) and more recently by a "plate" which has been panned and already altered (seems school kids weren't getting enough calories to make it through the day) It is now automatically revised/replaced every five years as the USDA admittedly struggles with a method to select the group that does it.
AnnaW said:
Succinct but true words to live by! Thanks tntlamb!
Sidenote: As a primary school teacher who has taught in both Canada and the UK ... I can assure you the food pyramid is alive and well for our youngsters ... and is mandated!
tntlamb said:The food pyramid was replaced a long time ago.
Its easy to tell a quack. They make a point of telling you that thay have knowledge that is rejected by others and then find a way to charge you for it. Be it a special test or. machine it doesn't matter. If they speak in absolutes they are a quack. If they say they believe in a natual approach and pull out a bottle of a natural supplement, they are a quack (there is a place for supplements) If they reject another approach much beyond, it can't hurt, they may may be a quack.
I'm with you.
ilika said:
I hate to throw gasoline on the fire, but...the food pyramid or whatever government-mandated guidelines you go by are actually lobbyist-influenced, and always have been. When I found this out, it sort of shook my world. I was really pissed off. I began to wonder if the black helicopter people were right. THAT will keep you up at night.
When you come to terms with a lot of information, fad, and misinformation, what you need to do is take a step back, not be overwhelmed by it and not allow it to overwhelm you. A methodical approach is best: read a bit on the internet, get a couple of recommended books, and just take it all in. Believe a little, disbelieve a little. Take it a bit at a time. I also like cookbooks. There's a cookbook by John Pagano (buy it on his website, NOT Amazon, because there are crooks out there!) and a cookbook called "Caroline's No Nightshade Kitchen" and a cookbook someone passed me awhile ago called the "Un-Constipated Gourmet." There are some really neat little paleo cookbooks out now, too. Some of it is interesting, and some of it is bulls**t. Yes, you are a living guinea pig, but try a little, learn a little, and pass your info on.
Louise Hoy's post sort of nailed it for me. I said yes! THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS! At least she's found one likely culprit. Honestly, sometimes, it seems sort of contradictory. Some people smoke cigarettes all their lives, and die late in their 80s from something other than heart and lung ailments. Really? How is that fair? I couldn't believe it when Timothy Leary finally kicked off late in his 70s. What does *that* say about drug abuse? Yet, I was in a preschool with a woman who taped an Epi-pen to her daughter's back, because this healthy, neurotypical little girl could die from a peanut.
I say "neurotypical" because I'm one of those people who got pregnant AFTER my autoimmune arthritis was diagnosed. And this was after years and years of miscarriages. One doctor started it with, "so when was the date of your last period?" and I said "Uhhhhhhhh." Then my rheumatologist got me into a neonatal specialist when my 20+-year OB/GYN told me to let them know when I miscarried. 'Scuse me?
My little boy was normal and healthy and born in 2009. And he's on the autism spectrum. Yes, that's right. Disabled mom with debilitating disease and ASD son. I sound like the Lifetime Movie of the Week, right?
Eh, well. There's a Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times. Some of us just preempt that with interesting lives.