Hi,
I found this online and thought some may find it helpful. This article talks about animal products and fat being an issue with inflammation.
http://drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html
I've been looking for whatever I can to try and help my PsA. I thought anyone who hasn't tried diet adjustments might be interested.
John McDougall, M.D. is an internist who is also a vegan (eats no animal protein) is most famous for the French Fry Diet. The McDougall program consists of ■■■■■■■■ calories a day with no more than 5% fat, 7-15% protein and 75-90% carbohydrates. He also makes a fortune with his pre packaged foods. There was a term coined back in the 90's to describe him: Quackademic I don't have a problem with anyone's choice to adapt diet to their life. Its hard to argue with eating healthy. the problem is depite several reinventions of himself just about verything McDougall says is just plain wrong. He says "Sugar is bad for you and olive oil is good for you. Both of these are myths." McDougall explains that eating sugar is better than olive oil because it contains less calories per gram than fat. One should never eat oil if they want to lose weight. It is much better to sprinkle sugar on your cereal than dip your bread in "dangerous" olive oil.
Then he says "The rich American diet is made up primarily of carb-deficient foods. Meat, poultry, and fish have no carbohydrate." He certainly is refering to be referring to citizens of the United States who are the biggest carb addicts in the world is he? Not to mention the only foods suspect for causing inflammation are high in Carbs.........
My favorite: "In general, high-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat foods make insulin work more efficiently and reduce the amount of insulin needed by the body…on the other hand, high fat foods dramatically increase insulin production." McDougall must have slept through his biochemistry and physiology classes in school because actually the opposite is true. High-carb foods dramatically increase insulin and fat has no affect on insulin. Anyone on a diabetic diet knows better
I could go on for pages about this nut, but I will spare you. There has been a huge number of diet/nutrition threads of late. I'm not sure why. Considering Mcdougal has been wacked innumerable times for "search spamming" by google I have my suspicions
Just about anyone who has fought this disease any length of time, truly has active disease knows just how ridiculous the whole thing is. the number one complaint is lack of understanding from friends and acquaintances who confuse the nastier the forms of this disease (You did know there are 5 types right?) with grandmas arthritis. Shortly after that nothing makes your day better than after spending an hour in the morning unfolding yourself, real tears from stretching to get moving, the going through the day wondering if this flare will ever end or if a bullet is a better alternative, to have one of these fine folks say "My sisters next door neighbors nephew cured himself with paprika pills."
Like I say I don't have a problem with anyone's choice to adapt diet to their life as its hard to argue with eating healthy. but as far as having any effect on DISEASE, there is none. There is NO proof of any. Have people reported a change in symptoms, Yes. Don't confuse the two.
I am sure in researching the latest in supplements and fad diets that the diet/alternative medicine proponents have also come across the fact that virtually every inflammatory arthritis patient goes into periods of remission (sometimes for years)
Anecdotal evidence is useless, and that is all that exists with diet and yeas there have been numerous studies to find a causal relationship and still all they can come up with is at BEST an anecdotal relationship. (There are volumes of real research however to prove the only thing that has stopped radiographic progression of this disease is combination of DMARD and NSAIDS and better yet a combination of Biologics, DMARD and NSAIDS.)
If you want anecdotal I have a long list of messages from both new and old members wondering how long we have to read diet thread after diet thread and why they just can't add to the existing current threads instead of spamming the boards with new thread after new thread.
You most certainly have the right to discuss alternatives all you want. But please do NOT bring in commercial enterprises such as Dr. Mcdougal (or be fooled by them as legitimate science.) Please don't start a new thread every time. Its makinging it hard for new members to be heard, specific needs shared (and responded to) and threads found. Also be aware while I personally don't care if you use Heroin for pain control and eat only peanut butter on zucchini blossoms, someone will disagree and say so. thats what a DISCUSSION BOARD is all about. Don't make it personal and don't take offense, you have likely given offense to someone who has suffered greatly is currently suffering looking for support,
If anyone has had this disease diagnosed a year and have shared that diagnoses, I promise you.they have heard of every diet idea and supplement out there. It doesn't mean they won't discuss it. Its just not revolutionary.
I really can't argue. What I read was fats including olive oil are to be avoided.
I'm not sure it makes sense to me either. I'm not claiming to have any answers. I'm suffering too. How would I know all of this ?
I don't know anything about a commercial enterprise....I am just a poor PsA person looking for alternatives to help me get by. Just like anyone else here.
I don't think you making that presumption is fair. I was just trying to share some info I found. You can chose to believe it or not. I don't even know if I do. Just trying to help.
Thanks a lot anyway for your thoughts.
I don't care what helps someone, if it helps then all the power to them. Don't blame me for being new at this and trying to find my way through a sea of so called information.
How helpful is bad information? The man is a certified quack. Would it be helpful to let it go. Science isn't like the tooth fairy or Santa Clause you know. Its not a matter of picking what you want to believe in. I'm too old to come up with a way of saying something in a way the 1700 folks here "like" I think you will find although I don't pull any punches I have a genuine regard for what people are going through.
There are more quack's out there just waiting for newbies to take advantage of than legitimate information. Thats the way con men operate. Very believable very sincere very helpful - until you close your wallet....... McDougal is one of the best. You found his article (and trust me it wasn't by accident there are SEO experts who do nothing but make sure you do find it) star following the links you will find his food line, his "treatment center" his "spa" and his personalized "practice" not to mention books tapes etc etc. The more you believe the more he will help. Pretty easy to spend 50 grand or more here: (one of his links)
http://drmcdougall.com/health.html
Or maybe an adventure trip:
http://drmcdougall.com/adventure.html
or the advanced program:
http://drmcdougall.com/health_3_day_program.html
I'm not sorry if I find IT offensive. I would hope you find IT offensive also.
I understand what you've said and only have issue with your approach. You need to take a step back and look at how you say things.
You've missed the point. How would I know it's bad info. I'm just searching for answers and never claimed to have any.
If you don't agree I welcome your comments. I know how con men operate, thanks.
By all means, you tell me what will work for me then. I'm in pain every day and can't seem to find what works.
Dini- There's a lot of information out there, as well as "cures". I've done research on a lot of different treatments, and tried some out, as many of us will. I tried diet, herbs, acupuncture, etc. Acupuncture worked really well on my PMS, that was it. My point is that anything that promises a cure is likely not going to be a cure.
The arthritis foundation website has good information, and does discuss some alternate and supportive therapies that can be helpful and may be worth trying. You can also talk to your doctor about some of these ideas. I've brought up some ideas to my doctor. . . She's shot them all down, but she's always been willing to explain why.
Hi Dini-
Thanks for posting this -- it is interesting to have many perpectives.
TNTLamb-- I am new here and I have to tell you that, while it appears you've a lot of good information to share, your communication style leaves something to be desired.
No one wants to be talked down to, lambasted, or bullied. You may have been a part of this message board for a long time, but your "moderator" position does not give you a right to take a tone that reads people the riot act about their choices or questions.
No one here is an expert on P or PsA and I do believe the last thing the folks who started this site wanted was to make anyone feel worse than they already do.
I'm sorry you took it that way. If you feel bad now, its nothing comparef to how bad you will feel from per manent damage and pain that will not and can not go away becsuse you have delsyed resl trestment thst can and foes stop the progression of this disesse. Ther is a form of denial that the newly diagnosed go throigh where they believe they hsve done something wtong, and all they need do is change it and the disease will go away. The other form of thst denial is that someone else has done something wrong, and keeping secret the real cure/treatment thst will make this thing go away. Just a bit of research will turn up the answer. The charletans such as McDougal with thrir books supplements advice etc taking advantage of this phas are what turns my crank. If you missed that I'm sorry. Yes when uou hesr the same lies ovet and over you get weary. It is very hard to come with a creative way to tell some one the incredible discovery they just made is utter bull. The fact is there isn't. At least not if you care enoigh to want them to stop chasing wind mills and avoid the situation us fossils have to live with. Most of us went years without trestment because there was none. What has happened in the last ten years is a minor miracle. We understand pain too, making the newbies with this disease undestand they can avoid much of it and much of the irrevesable damage the sooner you get into real tratment, activity, and getting generally healthy is the hard part. Sometimes help doesn't take the form you think it should. The other solution is if you don't like what I write or how I write it, skip it.
Sorry for the typos. Its the phone and my lack of thumbs so to speak
Katie Lady said:
Hi Dini-
Thanks for posting this -- it is interesting to have many perpectives.
TNTLamb-- I am new here and I have to tell you that, while it appears you've a lot of good information to share, your communication style leaves something to be desired.
No one wants to be talked down to, lambasted, or bullied. You may have been a part of this message board for a long time, but your "moderator" position does not give you a right to take a tone that reads people the riot act about their choices or questions.
No one here is an expert on P or PsA and I do believe the last thing the folks who started this site wanted was to make anyone feel worse than they already do.
Lamb can be a hard pill to swallow, but stick around for a year. You will find more and more that you not only agree with what he says but also how he says it.
THERE ARE NO DIETARY CURES FOR PSA. NONE. NADA. If I see another shake or smoothie, or suggestion to go gluten, dairy, or meat free; I am going to lose it. I already have the worlds most restrictive diet due to IBS. It works well for that, but has done nothing for my PsA. I have spent in the high hundreds for supplements and herbals. NONE worked. I personally feel that anyone who make these sorts of claims is criminal and doing a terrible disservice to a group of really sick people by making them avoid medical treatments that keep the long term effects of the disease at bay.
Well hard pill to swalllow or not, and I mean no disrespect, but I share in the very same general opinion and is why I hardly if ever post here. I will poke in from time to time, but for the most part I will not post a comment to avoid a response as demonstrated above.
I am not going to say a complete lifestyle change might not help PsA, but it’s not realistic. The damage from PsA can be permanent - that means the pain can be permanent. Aggressive treatment from the start will extend the quality of life in the future.
I get what you mean, but I left for months because of some guy I called the smoothie king. He would troll and always recommend these smoothies that had cured his PsA. It disgusted me. I left. I came back and haven’t seen him, but there seems to be double to amount of nutrition talk. It’s hard to read and respond kindly.
Being honest it's rather obvious that Dini's post is nothing close to the intent of someone who is posting about smoothies. And maybe I'm wrong but many are trying to learn or just find a place to help cope and share. That I feel deserves kindness, regardless of how someone feels about a legitimate question someone may ask. Anyways I do not want to get into a debate or drag this on. I just felt the need to share my feelings on the matter. Thank you
Hi everyone, Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them all.
I was not making reference to any claim about a cure or any product if there is one. I was making reference to the tests with different diets. I know many of you, as I, am looking for ways to ease the pain of PsA. Diet seems to be a popular one. I only thought some of the info might be helpful.
I understand that I, typically pick my way through information that I read. I am and have always been skeptical of everything. I didn't read about any claim, only the parts about diet tests and improvement which is why the discussion was titled "diet and pain"
Diet being something we can control ourselves I figured it's a good place to start.
I know of the doubt, my brother is convinced he knows what herbal remedy I need. It frustrates me and I doubt he's even read the info I sent him of PsA.
I believe most of this is what I have already said. I have no more to say on this topic.
WOW. May I suggest something here??? Why not Privately Message us NEWBIES that don't know better? And really instead of posting an entire lenghty thing like this why not say... John McDougall, M.D. is not a credible source. period. I can completely understand why someone would feel the way Dini felt about the way you approached this... I just don't understand. We are all suffering. We don't deserve to be treated in such a demeanor.
tntlamb said:
John McDougall, M.D. is an internist who is also a vegan (eats no animal protein) is most famous for the French Fry Diet. The McDougall program consists of 700-1100 calories a day with no more than 5% fat, 7-15% protein and 75-90% carbohydrates. He also makes a fortune with his pre packaged foods. There was a term coined back in the 90's to describe him: Quackademic I don't have a problem with anyone's choice to adapt diet to their life. Its hard to argue with eating healthy. the problem is depite several reinventions of himself just about verything McDougall says is just plain wrong. He says "Sugar is bad for you and olive oil is good for you. Both of these are myths." McDougall explains that eating sugar is better than olive oil because it contains less calories per gram than fat. One should never eat oil if they want to lose weight. It is much better to sprinkle sugar on your cereal than dip your bread in "dangerous" olive oil.
Then he says "The rich American diet is made up primarily of carb-deficient foods. Meat, poultry, and fish have no carbohydrate." He certainly is refering to be referring to citizens of the United States who are the biggest carb addicts in the world is he? Not to mention the only foods suspect for causing inflammation are high in Carbs.........
My favorite: "In general, high-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat foods make insulin work more efficiently and reduce the amount of insulin needed by the body…on the other hand, high fat foods dramatically increase insulin production." McDougall must have slept through his biochemistry and physiology classes in school because actually the opposite is true. High-carb foods dramatically increase insulin and fat has no affect on insulin. Anyone on a diabetic diet knows better
I could go on for pages about this nut, but I will spare you. There has been a huge number of diet/nutrition threads of late. I'm not sure why. Considering Mcdougal has been wacked innumerable times for "search spamming" by google I have my suspicions
Just about anyone who has fought this disease any length of time, truly has active disease knows just how ridiculous the whole thing is. the number one complaint is lack of understanding from friends and acquaintances who confuse the nastier the forms of this disease (You did know there are 5 types right?) with grandmas arthritis. Shortly after that nothing makes your day better than after spending an hour in the morning unfolding yourself, real tears from stretching to get moving, the going through the day wondering if this flare will ever end or if a bullet is a better alternative, to have one of these fine folks say "My sisters next door neighbors nephew cured himself with paprika pills."
Like I say I don't have a problem with anyone's choice to adapt diet to their life as its hard to argue with eating healthy. but as far as having any effect on DISEASE, there is none. There is NO proof of any. Have people reported a change in symptoms, Yes. Don't confuse the two.
I am sure in researching the latest in supplements and fad diets that the diet/alternative medicine proponents have also come across the fact that virtually every inflammatory arthritis patient goes into periods of remission (sometimes for years)
Anecdotal evidence is useless, and that is all that exists with diet and yeas there have been numerous studies to find a causal relationship and still all they can come up with is at BEST an anecdotal relationship. (There are volumes of real research however to prove the only thing that has stopped radiographic progression of this disease is combination of DMARD and NSAIDS and better yet a combination of Biologics, DMARD and NSAIDS.)
If you want anecdotal I have a long list of messages from both new and old members wondering how long we have to read diet thread after diet thread and why they just can't add to the existing current threads instead of spamming the boards with new thread after new thread.
You most certainly have the right to discuss alternatives all you want. But please do NOT bring in commercial enterprises such as Dr. Mcdougal (or be fooled by them as legitimate science.) Please don't start a new thread every time. Its makinging it hard for new members to be heard, specific needs shared (and responded to) and threads found. Also be aware while I personally don't care if you use Heroin for pain control and eat only peanut butter on zucchini blossoms, someone will disagree and say so. thats what a DISCUSSION BOARD is all about. Don't make it personal and don't take offense, you have likely given offense to someone who has suffered greatly is currently suffering looking for support,
If anyone has had this disease diagnosed a year and have shared that diagnoses, I promise you.they have heard of every diet idea and supplement out there. It doesn't mean they won't discuss it. Its just not revolutionary.
That message was for the boards. Perhaps there was a private discussion. McDougal is not only a noncredible source he is dangerous. When these types of threads strat to disappear. as is standard practice on all moderated bords, there is no explanation. I'm not sure what demeanor one should have that was about as straight forward as on can be. I'm a scientist not a social worker.