Methotrexate- so far

Hello everyone,

I wanted to share my experience so far since my diagnosis two weeks ago (06.04.17).

PSA symptoms started in 2008, but unfortunatly I was repeatedly misdiagnosed for the last 9 years, which means there is already some irreversible damage to my spine and shoulder.

Following my diagnosis I was eager to start treatment as soon as possible to prevent any further irreversible damage. My Rheumy prescribed Mtx. (15mg)

I was extreemly anxious about starting this medication, mainly because of Dr google and the horror stories I have read. Once I read it was developed as a cancer drug my brain went into panic mode. And all the potential side effects!

I had to talk myself down a bit, and luckily I found this site, where it seemed at least some people had positive results, and I first read the very sensible mantra: fear the disease, not the drug. After reminding myself the dosage for cancer patients is very much significantly higher, and weighing up my very real present pain, compared with any potential side effects I decided to go ahead.

It took me 5 days to build up the courage, but with sweaty shaky hands I popped my first MTX 10 days ago. I decided to take the pill on a Tuesday because I do not work Wednesdays, and I took it before bed in the hope that I would sleep off some of the side effects.

My side effects so far: After my first MTX dose I felt paniky, and it was hard to sleep, my heart was racing. But I do not think this was anything to do with the drug. I think I had just gotten myself too worked up from everything I had read. The following day I was extreemly tired and dopey (more than normal :wink: It felt as though I had had a strong sleeping pill the night before. I felt very fatigued, and just wanted to laze around home.

The day after that I still felt very tired, but a lot better. By the Friday I felt pretty much back to normal.

My second dose of MTX. Was pretty much the same as the first one in terms of dopyness and fatigue, but reduced. What I hope this means is that with each dose my body will build up a tolerance and that each week the side effects will reduce.

It really was not that bad. I had no nausea, vomiting etc. Just a bit tired and dopey for a day or so. It has not had made any difference in terms of the symptoms as yet. I believe im in what they call ā€˜the gapā€™. I hope to see some result in 4-8 weeks time. If any other side effects or benefits become apparent I will update.

Other changes
Since my diagnosis I have stopped smoking and drinking, although here in Berlin the Drā€™s say it is ok to drink alcohol while taking MTX. For now I am not drinking any alcohol, but long term I intend to keep it down to 2-3 beers per week.

I have gone gluten free, and vegan (apart from oily fish). I do not want to stay on MTX forever, I would like to explore the posibilities of more natural ways of controling this disease in the long term, although obviously in conjunction with my Rheumy. I do not want to risk the disease progressing even if I get to the point where I show no symptoms.

I will also start accupunture next week.

I have been on my new diet for two weeks, no wheat, no dairy, and in the last few days my pain has reduced considerably. I was in the middle of one of my worst flare ups. I know it is too soon for the MTX to have started working, so I have some hope the new diet may have played into thatā€¦ Of course it may have just been a coincidence, it does come go whenever it wants, we will seeā€¦

Hey again, Cal! Iā€™m responding to this, not because I have any experience with MTX, as most people do, but because I can relate to the fear about taking the meds that are so strong and can have unwanted SEsā€¦Iā€™m glad to hear you are doing well on it! I never took it, but went straight to Enbrel (hehe my usual plug for Enbrelā€“Iā€™m sure people saw that coming!). Well, that was all because I was chicken of the NSAIDs and DMARDs and over a course of several years (about as many as you had from start of your symptoms to diagnosis of PsA) my doctor was able to convince me to do SOMETHING and the good people, especially all the moderators, on this website convinced me to fear the disease, not the meds! It was the best thing Iā€™ve done to fight my PsA!

I donā€™t know how they do things in Germany, but eventually I would imagine your doctor will suggest going to a biologic. As far as I know, there are less possible SEs to biologics (I, and I would say most people here, donā€™t have any) even though there are tons of warnings on the label. Iā€™m a germ-a-phobe anyway, but in the 3 years Iā€™ve been on Enbrel Iā€™ve only caught a couple ā€œbugsā€ and nothing severe.

Let us know how the acupuncture goes! Iā€™ve always wanted to try that, but not sure my insurance would cover itā€¦the diet, too, is a great idea. A lot of people have good results with eliminating those foodsā€“I, myself, havenā€™t enough will power to do it. I did go gluten-free for 6 weeks a few years ago, and did feel better. It was impossible to keep avoiding it, though! :disappointed: Keep us posted on your continued success with that, alsoā€¦and, I would add, I think sugar can increase inflammation, but thatā€™s a tough one to give up, too!

I was unable to take MTX for years because the side effects made me so ill I was in bed for days. I decided to try it again by injection with a very low dose and add a little more each week. I now take it with little to no side effects.

I wish you good luck and hope the side effects diminish.

Thank you both for your responses,
It seems to be the perception of biologics here is different compared to in the US (i am assuming you are in the US?!) they are considered here to be more aggressive and have more side effectsā€¦or perhaps its just the insurance companyā€™s reluctance to pay?! Whichever the case may be, it is seen as pretty ā€˜hard coreā€™. A friend of mine is currently on Stelara. Is anyone familiar with this? He didnt have PsA, but he said his Psoriasis disappeared within 3 days! And he had it head to toe.

Mtx update 3 weeks. Exhausted, fatigued, but it is difficult to say if its the mtx or the PsA. But it feels pretty miserable waiting for it to work. My joints are all still hurting and clicking loudly when i move. I have 2 mouth sores, i believe this may be due to MTXā€¦ it could also be a coincidence.

I had acupuncture yesterday for the first time. It was a bit scary, but once it stated not so bad. I was sooo relaxed afterwards it was crazy, even if doesnt help with PsA i would recommend it for stress.

Overall- less pain than 4 weeks ago, but more fatigue. No noticeable benefits yet from MTX, but also no ā€˜scaryā€™ side effects.

Gosh your ā€˜gapā€™ as they call it here would make me struggle and become ā€˜temper tantrumā€™ like as I think they call it on here too. Werenā€™t you also given some ā€˜steroidsā€™ to ease your ā€˜gapā€™? Tapering down as the mxt dose increases? If you werenā€™t - why not ask, why not?

After I very finally decided a month ago that I had to finally go down this medication route, (due to damage now being seen, minor enough presently but enough to allow me to get over myself) which on the UKā€™s NHS takes some time to co-ordinate, I then told my GP he must simply re-prescribe steriods again whilst I was waiting. Life or rather just ā€˜todayā€™ for me is too precious to be too miserable whilst the medics go through their necessary stuff. He did. Think heā€™s probably abit scared of me too. :grin: So presently Iā€™m in a ā€˜honeymoonā€™ period of ā€˜greatā€™ capacity. Which is so fabulous. I know it canā€™t last. They leach your calcium from your bones for one. so never a long term solution. But Iā€™m happy enough to stay on them till the NHS allows my consultant to ā€˜getā€™ to me in the queue to then prescribe my mxt. In otherwords Iā€™ve told them that so itā€™s up to them to hurry themselves up presently. As in that buck has firmly been placed back in their hands. For now.

So glad you liked the acupucture. Iā€™m keeping that one in reserve till when I start your journey on mxt. My one presently is ā€˜mindfullnessā€™ off a simple app on my phone. Itā€™s taught me an awful lot about making today something worth while.

In the UK they appear concerned too, about biologics. Canā€™t presently work out if that is solely to do with NHS funding issues only or otherwise. But theyā€™re talked about with a huge sort of reverence about how precious and dangerous they are. In otherwords too many consultants appear to say ā€˜be careful of what you wish forā€™. Yet many on here take them fine. In the UK too. So who on earth knows! All I know is that I have a sister who is a patent lawyer in the USA, pattening drugs for her clients that help us indeed other sufferers for other diseases and sheā€™s horrified insurers in the USA, the NHS in the UK and whatever else elsewhere are so slow at just helping people. Or at least trying.

My goal with all of this is simply to have as many good ā€˜todayā€™sā€™ as possible. I like the rest of us can only live in the ā€˜todayā€™ so first that must be coherent and second it must be coherent to the near tomorrows too. Otherwise Iā€™m old enough with no dependants or children to simply not care too much. For me, presently, how I am just today is all that matters. Iā€™m not very good at doing the ā€˜sufferingā€™ or the ā€˜waitingā€™ simply because I canā€™t see the point of it, for too long anyhow.

Iā€™m an ardent animal lover too and sadly think how we care for our pets beats hands down as to how we care for ourselves as humans, too.

Hi Poo,
I have so many other stressful and existential issues also happening at the same time I havent been able to freak out/temper tantrum. Just exhausted. But if and when things calm down and I catch up with myself, I am sure I will!

I was not offered steroids, I have had them in the past, in the form of injections directly into my jointā€¦ i do not fancy that again.

Here in Germany the Drā€™s do not have a bedside manner like Uk Drā€™s, and do not tolerate being second guessed so well. Patients in turn revere the Drā€™s. Very yes sir no sir. Insisting would definitely not be an option, not with the size of their egoā€™s! But i could ask i guessā€¦ I observe that their subservience to authority is frighteningly contagious.

I would also just like to comment on your remark about the NHS. Ive been living in Germany for 5 years now, has it really deteriorated that much? From my perspective, i miss it. To me our NHS is the jewel in our crown. I know that the media and politicians are constantly trying to persuade us all that private healthcare is the only way forward (for obvious financial reasons), but speaking as someone who has experienced both, i found it very hard to adjust to. To be refused treatment if i forgot my healthcard, to be concerned about the risk of not being covered. Although, here i would add, it is different in germany than in the states as they have partialy state run healthcare providers who must accept poorer people, but as to be expected, this insurance does not cover as much as the more expensive ones, and if you are not a citizen then you up the creek without a paddle. My opinion is that the NHS is way more humane, just sadly mismanagement and political agendaā€™s would have us believe the grass is greener hereā€¦ it isnt.

Im not sure who to believe regarding biologics, yes, the rhetoric seems to be very different here than that of our cousins across the pond. Confusing isnt it!?

Your goal of having as many good days as possible and living in the moment is great, i will try and think of that more often. Im an ardent animal lover too, Nice to hear that you are:) ā€¦ Maybe youā€™ll appreciate this thenā€¦:slight_smile:

I always wanted a dog, but after my diagnosis i realised this would maybe not be an option, as i have no garden and having to accept the reality that stairs could one day be a problem x3 per day, or my little friend pulling at the lead. So the week after my diagnosis i decided to rescue two kitties.
I decided to rescue two cats with disabilities, cos i didnt want to keep a cat as a house pet if it was able to go outside. They are two little brothers. They are in spain, where they have a bit of a cat problem, so ive never met them. But they didnt want to be separated, and they have a very sad story. Also having disabilities it would have been hard for them to find a home. They are due to arrive on the 13th May, and I am very excited! Im hopeful that having two little furballs two love may also lower my stress levels. Cats on the NHS, thats an idea!!!

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Hi Cal! Most people get instructed to take folic acid supplements when theyā€™re on MTX. This way you can avoid mouth sores, hair loss, etc. The suggested schedule seems to vary somewhat, with some people being told not to take it on the same day as MTX, and others instructed to take it 7 days a week. The amounts vary as well. I know that when I was on MTX I was taking 4000mg a day at one point, as anything lower I would have bad mouth sores develop. Now that Iā€™m on leflunomide I seem to be able to get away with closer to 2000-3000mg a day. Please check in with your doctor.

The other thing is to make sure that youā€™re drinking lots and lots of water. Staying really well hydrated can also help minimize some side effects.

Cal, oh wow - what a fabulous thing to do for those two cats. Thatā€™s so gorgeous. What are their disabilities? Animals are so much better than us on managing their disabilities too. My friend had a cat that lost his front leg in a road traffic accident around aged 2. He lived happily till he was 17, even catching his last mouse around 2 months before he sadly had to be put to sleep. I have two cats, brothers too aged just 16 and doing incredibly well presently. Sleep alot, eat alot, cuddle alot and generally make me smile. And their antics even at this age and the fact that stroking them is so rewarding - they most definitely decrease my stress levels.

Last May - 15th we got an 8 week old black labrador puppy. Last May also I finally accepted I had PsA too. Last May too I was in severe pain, frightened, exhausted, disabled and terrified this would be my future. I cried trying to clean up after this gorgeous puppy, cried trying to walk him around the garden to get him toilet trained at least 20 times a day. I cried staying up late and getting up early (sometimes so almost impossible) and thought we had been utterly insane to get a puppy.

Well we werenā€™t. I tried mx then spent 24 hours throwing up possibly due to side effects and/or possibly through stupid hysteria, sadly threw a tantrum and then just managed on low dose steroids tablets and painkillers. I have a severe phobia of vomiting too. The last time I threw up before last May was July 1995! Went to Dublin once a month for a homeopathic treatment from about July, which worked painwise at any rate probably for about 3 or 4 months intermittently. When it worked it really did work too. Realised over Christmas that first I should get re-evaluated and secondly I had to maintain a better expectation of capability than I was doing. And my Irish treatment was never going to stop any progression of this disease anyhow so it wasnā€™t sensible to just rely on that. Asked my GP to send me to Bath (centre of excellence in my view in the UK for PsA) Iā€™m in Kent with a perfectly able rheumatology dept but not one that gets that excited about PsA. Bath does. So I went to Bath and am now told 3 joints are now eroding ever so slightly, my hip and two toes. So this time Iā€™m welcoming starting the treatment circus.

My understanding like Stoneyā€™s is that folic acid should be prescribed with mxt. In Kent I was told to take it the day after only. Bath tells me Iā€™ll be taking it 6 days a week only missing the day Iā€™ll be injecting mxt. When I was prescribed mxt in Kent last May, steroid tablets were also prescribed with the idea of sliding those down as the mxt was increased. (Thatā€™s the reason I got my GP to re-prescibe them again now.) Personally I prefer Bathā€™s approach as I believe the more folic acid taken the less side effects of mxt suffered. However Iā€™ve asked my doctor in Bath to explain to me precisely what she is going to be looking for to tell her mxt is doing its job for me and in what time scale. I will be expecting her to say my erosions arenā€™t progressing and I expect to be feeling far more consistently able and off steroids tablets too. Weā€™ll see. But you and I are at the beginning of this treatment maze, so thereā€™s a huge number of drugs and combinations of them for us to try. So really weā€™re lucky arenā€™t we? And yes everyone says drink tons of water whilst on mxt too.

The NHS in the UK is fabulous in my view. It has to treat me as a resident and tax payer here. Iā€™m not a UK citizen but an Irish one and very proud to be Irish too. But Iā€™ve lived and worked here since 1989. However the NHS is also plagued by lots of issues understandably and it has struggles but I consider myself hugely fortunate to be able to avail of it. Private medical insurance in the UK doesnā€™t provide cover for chronic conditions so whilst I have that through my employment, it will do diddly squat in covering anything to do with PsA other than say if I needed a joint replacement - I could do that privately which would be quicker and more comfortable than waiting on a NHS waiting list.

Now to doctors. Doctors are by definition intelligent in order to be able to do all that study. Rheumatologists and any other consultants are also intelligent given theyā€™ve gone on and specialised. Their job is know their specialism and to treat patients suffering from their subject of excellence. The sole purpose of their chosen job is to help the relevant patients. If they canā€™t do that properly well then theyā€™re no good at their job, irrespective as to how intelligent they might be. Theyā€™re not a superior being to me though and neither am I superior being to them. So Iā€™m afraid they get short shrift from me if they pull any superior nonsense, or believe theyā€™re some sort of God or think itā€™s at all appropriate to belittle me (especially if Iā€™m then presently scared witless). I donā€™t particular care if they donā€™t like me asking questions or even second guessing them. Theyā€™re grown ups just like me and so should be able to deal with my questions, my quest for understanding and indeed me being frightened and exhausted too. I am always super polite to all of them but Iā€™m phenomenally persistent.

I know though Iā€™m lucky as Iā€™m a lawyer so I can march in or rather limp into a consultation and present myself (if needs be only) as an equal strata professional. That cuts the superior nonsense very quickly. Doctors are scared of lawyers with due reason too. Iā€™m also lucky that Iā€™ve worked with doctors for much of my professional life as I used to instruct them as medico-legal experts for trials. So I know them and the tricks they pull if theyā€™re feeling out of their depth and lacking in confidence. So just as a client instructed me to take on their case and they expected me to the best job possibly for them, I expect any doctor who has to see me to do likewise. I donā€™t need to be their friend and I donā€™t need them to like me but I do need them to do their job for me. If they do we get along fine, if they donā€™t I complain and pull them up. All professionals have complaint procedures and Iā€™m never scared of using them if itā€™s rational to do so. My present job is to decide complaints from consumers about the providers of financial products and services like banks, insurance companies etc. I make binding decision on these instutitions to ensure if the consumerā€™s complaint is valid that theyā€™re put back into the position they should have been in. So obviously Iā€™m not at all scared about making a complaint if needs be.

And guess what - neither should you be, if something isnā€™t right or you donā€™t uderstand or you feel your concerns arenā€™t being listened to. Provided youā€™re motivated to get yourself in the best possible position treatment wise so as to be the most capaciated you can be, neither should you ever be frightened or scared to ask a doctor to do his or her job properly for you.

I donā€™t advocate wasting your time and everyone elseā€™s at simply complaining at everything and anything - thatā€™s just silly but certainly if something isnā€™t right it needs to be sorted out. I hope this has helped.

But now back to why we werenā€™t mad to get the puppy. Far more important. He took shedloads of work at training, masses of patience. Has ruined carpets in two rooms, took a liking for eating coal of all things and I kept forgetting to lift the coal bucket or sometimes found it too hard to! But I can quite categorically say heā€™s an absolute joy to have about. The cats are rejuvenated by him since they consider they have a 27/7 job to do now, which is both torment him and keep him in check. He got me out walking when I truly thought I couldnā€™t do so and the exercise helped me actually even if the walks were often shorter than either he or I would have liked. I found a lead that simply doesnā€™t let him pull too - essential. And every single minute of every single day he has the ability to make me smile, laugh or groan but with a smile on my face. I am utterly besotted with him and he with us. The very best thing Iā€™ve ever done this past year. Freddie arrived on 15 May last year so Iā€™m super excited for you that your furballs are arriving on 13 May this year. It seems like thatā€™s a great weekend in the year for welcoming animals into your home. Especially if youā€™re facing all youā€™re presently facing PsA wise too. Fabulous distraction from the understandable fear issues youā€™re dealing with.

If Freddie continues to calm down as he is now, my intention is make him into a pet therapy dog if possible so we can visit old peopleā€™s homes and hospices etc to spread some smiles and bring some comfort. For me there is nothing so lovely than pet animal being nice to me, or even a farm animal or a wild animal. God knows why I chose to become a lawyer, should have just worked with animals! And what do animals do? They just live in the today right now! We can learn so much from just that.

So on that note, Iā€™m off to argue with my vacuum cleaner and see if I can remove at least some black dog hair from floors and sofas. Have a good rest of your day.:smiley_cat::smiley_cat::dog:

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Hi Poo & Stoney,

I was indeed taking folic acid, 5mg the day following my MTX dose. I say was because there is an update. I went back to see the Dr today because of my concerns regarding high uric acid levels in my recent blood tests. I also told him about my mouth ulcers and he has taken me off MTX. So, after a four week trial with MTX, I will not be taking it any longer. He said that the ulcers were a sign that my body couldnā€™t tolerate MTX very well so he would like to try me on something else.

Before starting a different medication (perhaps bilogics) he said he wants the MTX to be fully out of my system. He will start me on a new course of treatment in July, and in the meantime he has given me a prescription for Voltaren (diclofenac).

So, that was a short honeymoon. I didnā€™t think my side effects where actually that bad, comapared with the horror stories i have read, but the Dr didnā€™t seem to want to take that risk.

So, im gonna wash that drug right out of my (receding) hair, and try something else.

I did try to ask him what he intended, but he was not forthcoming. Which leeds me to what you were saying Poo. Perhaps if I was a lawyer i would be treated better, im not sure. But I am just a lowley care assistent. I have tried to go through complaints proceedures twice with Drā€™s here in Germany, one of whom, on a home visit, refused to leave my house and tried to examine me by force. It was really shockingly bad behaviour, but the complaints proceedure got nowhere and they closed ranks. In the end, both times, I did not have the resourses, money, or energy that it would take to fight the system here. Now, when I see an awful Dr i just leave and then post reviews/tell anyone I can so they can avoid them. I love living in Berlin, but possibly one of the biggest things I miss about the UK is the healthcare, and the manner in which (most) Drā€™s and nurses treat their patients.

Wow Poo, you have got a furry full-house! that sounds amazing! Maybe it could work one day for me too with a dog then. But I would want to have a flat with a garden, just in case of bad days. Soo many stairs. How did you make sure to get the right dog that the cats would get along with? Was it just luck or did you do temperament checks or something?

Therapy dog idea is fantastic. Would you believe I had the same idea too?! Funny. I rescued and rehomed a dog from Hungry two years ago, he was in a killing station. But he is happily rehomed (after a lot of training by me) in Berlin now. I would like to rescue more one day, and if they are suitable, train them up as therapy dogs.

The two cats arrivig on 13th (yayyy) ā€¦One is blind, and the other cant cope with stress or dust. Because of untreated illnesses he has a lot of nasal and throat damage, whener he is stressed or cold he just sneezes constantly, which then in turn would cause more potential damage. He has to be kept warm, dust free and calm, and the other obvs canā€™t see, so he canā€™t go outside. But I have already bought lots of suitable toys for him to hunt using his other senses :slight_smile:

BTW, Cal is short for Callum. My family are from county clare :slight_smile:

Doing what youā€™re doing with doctors that seriously donā€™t treat you right is perfectly good enough Cal. Leaving reviews and leaving appointments. Complaining does take energy and if youā€™ve got a choice of another doctor then do the review and move on. Far easier on the energy levels thatā€™s for sure.

It does sound like your present doctor is on top of things and reacting appropropriately to your side effects. Thatā€™s good. Very good! So maybe heā€™s a keeper.

Iā€™m from County Dublin - small world isnā€™t it? Lots of my relatives were from Clare too, so weā€™ll have to compare notes on that one. Iā€™m off on hols for a week tomorrow so it will be after I get back, though.

And then Iā€™ll also tell you how the dog and cats manage in far more detail. The cats were previously used to a dog but not for 3 years - so that helped. And the trick is always to let the cat win. That way the dog is scared and then has a healthy respect for the cats and life is good for all of them. The dog was a puppy too - that really helped. But I will tell you loads more after Iā€™m back.

Youā€™ll though be busy with your cats then. That will so fabulous.

And incidentally care assistants arenā€™t lowly at all, theyā€™re heros in my book! Have a good week getting that mxt out of your system.

For serious? I was born and raised out in Firhouse, right beside Tallaght. Live in the US these days though.

Yay more Irish folks.

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Dilorenzo,

My niece and husband along with a nephew live there along with my brotherā€™s ex-wife! I grew up in Killiney, Dalkey and Shankill long before it got the popstars!

Sorry for my long delay in replying too - I was on holiday for a week.

We need to start an Irish corner!!! Share Irish jokes or get a load of them to share on here to keep people smiling when they need a giggle!!!

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Are your cats arriving today??? Hope it goes well. :grinning:

I donā€™t know as I could share a lot of the ones I know. At least, not in polite company.

Or, you know, here either.

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Laughing! Thought you might say that!:grinning:

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